So, who's ready to take the covid-19 vaccine ?

[ajkula66]

This is simply not the case! It may be more deadly, but there is still almost a 95% survival rate, which, in my book, does not make it deadly at all.

Is it *definitely* more deadly for the older folks. There can be no argument about that aspect of the story.

As for the exact criteria for declaring something to be a "deadly" virus, opinions will differ greatly.

No, C-19 is not AIDS or Ebola in that respect - or anywhere close - thankfully.

Seasonal flu is usually at way less than 1% but it still ends up being deadly for quite a few people every year. We've just learned to accept that reality over the years.

While I do believe that the whole C-19 hysteria has been massively overblown on purpose, I would still prefer not to get the bug. With my health, I likely wouldn't fare well at all.

[karotlopj]

Seasonal flu is usually at way less than 1% but it still ends up being deadly for quite a few people every year. We've just learned to accept that reality over the years.

Seasonal flu has been deadly over the years, but have you noticed that no one dies of it any more...Wonder why... maybe all the flu deaths have simply been reclassified as Covid-19 deaths. That way hospitals can earn a lot more money by a simple bureaucratic process.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news ... oronavirus

During the 2018-2019 season, the CDC estimates 16.5 million people went to a health care provider for the flu and more than 34,000 people died in the U.S. The prior season saw 61,000 deaths.

[ajkula66]

Seasonal flu is usually at way less than 1% but it still ends up being deadly for quite a few people every year. We've just learned to accept that reality over the years.

Seasonal flu has been deadly over the years, but have you noticed that no one dies of it any more...Wonder why... maybe all the flu deaths have simply been reclassified as Covid-19 deaths. That way hospitals can earn a lot more money by a simple bureaucratic process.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news ... oronavirus

During the 2018-2019 season, the CDC estimates 16.5 million people went to a health care provider for the flu and more than 34,000 people died in the U.S. The prior season saw 61,000 deaths.

You're essentially arguing the same point that I was several posts ago, about the C-19 death count being inflated.

My point, in a nutshell, comes down to the following:

a) C-19 is real. While I do believe that the death count has been inflated, and the danger vastly overblown for non-scientific reasons people of certain age and/or with certain underlying health conditions have a very rough ride when they encounter the bug. Even if it doesn't kill them outright, it trashes their immune system and is likely to leave lasting damage to some internal organs.

b) Was this a good enough reason for all the insanity that we've seen over the past 15 months? Absolutely not.

c) Is any of the above a good enough reason *for me personally* to accept the vaccine ? Absolutely not.

d) Do I deem the non-medical "side effects" of the whole scenario to be far more serious and dangerous than the bug itself ? Yes, by several orders of magnitude.

Hope this clears any misunderstandings.

[exTPfan]

The Hong Kong flu killed between 34,000 and 100,000 people in the U.S, mostly those over 65. It was not even close to C19.

Perhaps you are old enough to remember polio. Back then enough people got vaccinated so that the disease completely disappeared from most countries. The same would be true of C19. Otherwise the nightmare will continue forever.

Your choice.

[ajkula66]

The Hong Kong flu killed between 34,000 and 100,000 people in the U.S, mostly those over 65. It was not even close to C19.

100K is the figure that I've seen. but I was talking about the numbers *worldwide*. I can't speak of what went on in the U.S. but in Europe it was a big deal. People were dying left and right. No one ever locked down anything.

Perhaps you are old enough to remember polio. Back then enough people got vaccinated so that the disease completely disappeared from most countries. The same would be true of C19. Otherwise the nightmare will continue forever.

Yes and no. I have been vaccinated against it as a child. I've also personally known people older than myself who were crippled by it. Not a fun disease by any means.

However...you DO realize how long the development and testing of the polio vaccine lasted ? Including the fact that the first version was scrapped...

I would also advise you to look into the swine flu vaccine/pandemic of 1976. There are some lessons to be learned from that one.

I do NOT trust this vaccine. Period. End of story. Talk to me in 30 years if I'm still around, which is not very likely.

Your choice.

I certainly look at it that way.

Whoever wants to get vaccinated, go right ahead, it's your call. Just don't expect me to join.

[unixed]

This is simply not the case! It may be more deadly, but there is still almost a 95% survival rate, which, in my book, does not make it deadly at all.

Again the high percentage is giving you a false sense of security. Expressing a proportion as a percentage is like compression or expansion, or zooming out or in, i.e. you are scaling.
Cut a sheet of paper into 20 equal sized squares and number them and fold them over, so hiding the numbers. Choose a number between 1 and 20 then draw one of the numbered pieces of paper from a well-shaken box. If you draw the number you chose, prick yourself with a pin. You'll be scared, but when you play the same game with the virus it will be a garrote not a pin, so don't chicken out.
Now repeat that with 100 pieces of paper but this time choose 5 different numbers (you're choosing for yourself and 4 others), shake, pick and possibly prick. This is the scenario you are thinking of when you dismiss the virus as low-risk. ajkula66 is right in that the risk of dying isn't uniformly distributed (although it isn't exclusively people from the high-risk groups that die), but being a carrier is -- maybe you don't die but you kill your parents or grandparents, for example. Bear in mind that for the game to better correspond to reality, every number must be taken. So 20 people play and one gets pricked, or 100 play and 5 get pricked. See my previous post for the numbers of people who have been fatally "pricked" in the real life version.

Without a pin in sight you think you'll be just fine playing with 100 numbers. Do it with 20 numbers with the pin on the table. Your blindfold has 95 printed on it. You'll be just fine.

My own son had it. Lost a sense of smell for three months and that was that.

I'm really pleased to hear that he got through in one piece.

[ajkula66]

Again the high percentage is giving you a false sense of security.

A very well-written post... ...however:

I don't necessarily see it as being just "a false sense of security". Every single day most of us roll the dice by engaging in activities that can have a lethal or crippling outcome, such as crossing the street or driving a car. We do these things without thinking twice about them. Hedge our bets that we won't be ones who end up getting run over or in some horrible crash. That's pretty much the way I see C-19. One should be cautious, but not paranoid which is something that I've seen a lot of people become over the past ~15 months. Sad state of affairs, IMO.

I'm really pleased to hear that he got through in one piece.

Thank you. He's only 17 and in very good health - knock wood - apart from a mild case of asthma so we really didn't expect a different outcome. Here's the interesting part of the story IMO: both him and his twin brother were sitting at the very same table with the (older) kid who was infected but had yet to add 2+2 and decided to attend the gathering anyway although he wasn't feeling well... ...my other son didn't get sick. Tested repeatedly. Nope. No sign of C-19 whatsoever. The biggest pain and heartache came from the fact that this was the first time in their lives that they had to be separated for more than a day or two...it may sound ridiculous for someone who hasn't dealt with a set of twins, but it's not. Trust me.

[dr_st]

I don't necessarily see it as being just "a false sense of security". Every single day most of us roll the dice by engaging in activities that can have a lethal or crippling outcome, such as crossing the street or driving a car. We do these things without thinking twice about them. Hedge our bets that we won't be ones who end up getting run over or in some horrible crash. That's pretty much the way I see C-19. One should be cautious, but not paranoid which is something that I've seen a lot of people become over the past ~15 months. Sad state of affairs, IMO.

When it comes to driving, and crossing the street - the necessary safety measures are taught in elementary schools/driving schools, and we have a very good understanding what it means to be cautious. What does "caution" mean in respect to an invisible airborne particle virus, that can be easily spread by people who don't even realize they have it (not to mention folks like the kid you mentioned who decided to attend an event despite feeling unwell). How do you protect yourself in a crowded theatre, stadium, concert? IMO, some of the measures such as canceling mass gatherings, mandating masks in close-quarter indoor mixups, public transportation, isolation for people who have been potentially exposed etc. - are absolutely justified. I would even say that during the early months, before we knew more about the virus, before mass testing infrastructures were set up - stricter measures were also justified. And no, you don't have to go as far as China did, but what Israel had implemented during the first closure (not during the subsequent ones) went quite well.

It is all part of what you call "hedging our bets". The other part was working like mad to produce effective vaccines in record time, something which has never been done before, in order to achieve sufficient immunity to allow things to go back to normal ASAP (and without suffering massive casualties and possible collapse of the healthcare system). And when the project succeeded - people turn their nose up on it.

[karotlopj]

Can someone explain to me why any information on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook which is counter to the 'prescribed' doctrine is immediately censored?
Why have YouTube deleted 22,000 videos which go against what MSM are telling us? Why did everyone smear hydroxychloroquine as soon as Trump mentioned it? Why did The Lancet (the hitherto acknowledged authority on medicines) publish false information about it, only to retract the article several months later. Why the obsession with the Bill Gates' (population reduction) vaccine when there are plenty of (much cheaper and effective) therapeutics available?

Just asking...

[ajkula66]

When it comes to driving, and crossing the street - the necessary safety measures are taught in elementary schools/driving schools, and we have a very good understanding what it means to be cautious.

Given the number of people who die in these types of accidents, we are not taught all that well.

How do you protect yourself in a crowded theatre, stadium, concert?

Don't attend unless you're comfortable doing so. I don't see it as being a difficult choice.

in order to achieve sufficient immunity to allow things to go back to normal ASAP (and without suffering massive casualties and possible collapse of the healthcare system). And when the project succeeded - people turn their nose up on it.

I can't say anything about Israel, but we are NEVER going back to normal here, and neither is EU/UK. Just like after 9/11, people were happy to surrender a ton of their freedoms in exchange for a false sense of security. There's no vaccine against stupidity.

[ajkula66]

Just asking...

All valid questions...

[axur-delmeria]

Why did everyone smear hydroxychloroquine as soon as Trump mentioned it?

Because he proclaimed it as a miracle cure at a time when reports of its efficacy were anecdotal and had not been verified. He was the one who smeared it TBH.

[ajkula66]

Why did everyone smear hydroxychloroquine as soon as Trump mentioned it?

Because he proclaimed it as a miracle cure at a time when reports of its efficacy were anecdotal and had not been verified. He was the one who smeared it TBH.

Well, the aforementioned article in The Lancet - which was eventually proven to be based on bogus data and had to be retracted - supposedly prompted banning the doctors from prescribing it for treating C-19 altogether. Meanwhile, every single doctor and/or nurse that I know in NY hospitals who got hit by the bug early on found a way of prescribing it to themselves...and they all lived to tell me about it.

Trump made a zillion mistakes in handling this thing, but promoting HCQ was not one of them IMO.

[karotlopj]

Why did everyone smear hydroxychloroquine as soon as Trump mentioned it?

Because he proclaimed it as a miracle cure at a time when reports of its efficacy were anecdotal and had not been verified. He was the one who smeared it TBH.

There has been a ton of evidence if you look, just don't use Google as your search engine because results will be filtered. Use something like duckduckgo.

Try finding this video via Google:-

https://brandnewtube.com/watch/we-have- ... hK7F2.html

It got deleted from YouTube very quickly and the black propaganda machine immediately went into high gear to discredit the Frontline Doctors who have lots of great videos here - https://brandnewtube.com/watch/we-have- ... hK7F2.html

It's time that some people wandered out of their bubble...

And here's a surprise that you wouldn't know about from MSM

Dr. Vladimir Zelenko nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Dr. Zelenko achieved worldwide prominence for treating COVID-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine and zinc, finding that mortality dropped 8-fold with use of those two substances. He says treatment with hydroxychloroquine and zinc within the first 5 days reduces death rates by 85%.

[unixed]

.. the black propaganda machine ..

None of this nonsense, please. This forum has a diverse and cosmopolitan membership. Even though you generally can't tell the melanin content of a poster's skin, we definitely have American and Canadian members with Mexican, Chinese and Japanese ancestry, for example.

[dr_st]

Can someone explain to me why any information on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook which is counter to the 'prescribed' doctrine is immediately censored?

With how much gets through you have to wonder how effective this 'censorship' is.

Why the obsession with the Bill Gates' (population reduction) vaccine when there are plenty of (much cheaper and effective) therapeutics available?

Because there are not "much cheaper and effective" therapeutics. You are spreading lies and misinformation. Every one of the "miracle cures" touted so far, once tested a bit more rigorously, has not shown any noticeable efficacy in reducing mortality or morbidity.

[karotlopj]

Because there are not "much cheaper and effective" therapeutics. You are spreading lies and misinformation. Every one of the "miracle cures" touted so far, once tested a bit more rigorously, has not shown any noticeable efficacy in reducing mortality or morbidity.

If 'rigorous' testing is important, how come the vaccine has already been released and injected into 100's of millions of people? 'Experts' were saying about a year ago that it would take five years to produce a safe vaccine, yet in the space of five months something was produced by 'BIG PHARMA', seeing a tremendous marketing opportunity, and were are led to believe that this world-wide 'clinical trial' is actually safe. There are many reports showing that people have died or suffered serious illness as a result of being vaccinated. There are also plenty of reports of people catching Covid-19 after being vaccinated.

This whole PLANdemic thing stinks to high heaven. You just need to venture outside your bubble to see what world forces are behind all the misinformation and daily propaganda from MSM.

http://stateofthenation.co/?p=7777

Why was Davos World Economic Forum preparing for a coronavirus pandemic in December of 2019?!

Of course, it's all part of The Great Reset https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

[dr_st]

If 'rigorous' testing is important, how come the vaccine has already been released and injected into 100's of millions of people?

Because it was tested rigorously. They had clinical trials of tens of thousands of people.

None of the preliminary studies that suggested that there might be some good drugs for treatment post-infection had anything even remotely close to such sample sizes. Nor did they ever suggest that these were "miracle drugs". All they said is that there are potential positive effects, worth of further study. Some of these, once further studied, turned out to be ineffective, for others studies are still ongoing.

'Experts' were saying about a year ago that it would take five years to produce a safe vaccine, yet in the space of five months something was produced by 'BIG PHARMA', seeing a tremendous marketing opportunity, and were are led to believe that this world-wide 'clinical trial' is actually safe.

The COVID-19 vaccine development project is a prime example of how humanity, when facing an actual crisis, can come together, and solve a hard problem in record times. It was so effective, that many people simply refuse to believe and scream "Lies! Consipracy!"

However, to anyone who has any actual work experience in science, technology, engineering, or basically anything which requires problem-solving, knows that productivity of individuals, and of teams, can rise ten-fold and more, during crunch periods, and would not be so surprised.

The only thing that the clinical trials could not possibly have covered is long-term effects of the vaccine, because by definition you cannot know what happens in ten years, unless you wait ten years. This is the only true unknown and the only concern about the safety of the vaccines that has any basis in logic and reason. However, as I pointed out numerous times, the long-term effects of COVID-19 are equally unknown, and there is no reason to believe that they would be more or less severe. Assuming that we cannot live in a perpetual state of lockdown, this gamble on some unknown future effects, favors the path of vaccination. Fortunately, it is not actually necessary that everyone gets the vaccine. The population can deal with a certain percentage of people who don't, and still be close enough to herd immunity to avoid an epidemic.

There are many reports showing that people have died or suffered serious illness as a result of being vaccinated. There are also plenty of reports of people catching Covid-19 after being vaccinated.

This is where we get to the part where you expose your complete inability to grasp statistics. Unfortunately, with the field of medicine in general being largely statistical, it is precisely why people who do not understand it, and cannot differentiate between isolated cases and generalized tendencies, that are easily led astray by bullsh!t claims.

None of the current vaccines in production was claimed to be 100% effective. They were all presenting numbers between 85-95%. Why should anyone be surprised by reports of people catching it after being fully vaccinated? With that said, the clinical trials did show that the chance of developing serious illness is even lower than those 5-15%, maybe about 1% or below, but when there are millions vaccinated, 1% is still a lot of people. So you will see reports of serious COVID illness and even deaths in fully vaccinated people. But it's the numbers that count. If instead of 1,000 critically ill people you get 10 (and possibly less than that, because transmission is reduced as well - something we did not know for sure at first, but now we do), then the vaccine is a great tool.

Same thing about people getting sick or dying as a side effect of the vaccine. First, people die for various reasons all the time. When you vaccinate a large percentage of the adult population in a short time, you will have many illnesses/deaths in this group that have nothing to do with the vaccine. That will be the majority of them. Still, some may indeed get sick or die as a reaction. So when strange patterns or statistical anomalies emerge - they get investigated. Like, for instance, the rise in myocarditis among young people that was reported in Israel.

For every vaccine, for every medicine ever approved, some people will develop side-effects which might be life-threatening or even lethal. However, if your clinical trials are good enough (and they are - we know how to set them up properly) - these will be several order of magnitudes lower than the chances of serious of lethal outcomes of the disease that these medicines are treating/preventing. This is clearly the case with COVID-19 vaccines as well.

You just need to venture outside your bubble to see what world forces are behind all the misinformation and daily propaganda from MSM.

One of us should venture outside our bubble, but I have a feeling it's not me. For starters, I don't get all my data from a handful of "BIG PHARMA!!!" conspiracy theory websites.

[shawross]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdzW-S8MwbI

A 16 minute video that will explain what is happening in society today.

[exTPfan]

@ajkula66

What you write about the polio vaccines is wrong, and even it was right it would be irrelevant, since the science on vaccines has advanced so greatly in the intervening years.

You are just one of the freeloaders, hoping that enough people get vaccinated so that you don't have to. Since you are unwilling to admit this even to yourself, you have to come up with these rubbish arguments.

If enough people get vaccinated, we'll be rid of the virus in a few months; if not the nightmare will linger on forever.

[ajkula66]

@ajkula66

What you write about the polio vaccines is wrong, and even it was right it would be irrelevant, since the science on vaccines has advanced so greatly in the intervening years.

I suggest using sources other than wikipedia when doing research of this nature. My *theoretical* knowledge of many aspects of medical science would likely blow your mind like it has blown minds of every single American doctor I've ever had a serious conversation with. Most of us have hobbies. That's one of mine. Could I draw a tube of blood out of anyone without hurting them ? Absolutely not. But I'm sure you're catching my drift.

You are just one of the freeloaders, hoping that enough people get vaccinated so that you don't have to. Since you are unwilling to admit this even to yourself, you have to come up with these rubbish arguments.

I never expected to be outright insulted on this forum, let alone by you. But I guess that one is never too old to be surprised.

Now let me explain a couple of things to you:

There are vaccines and medications that I do believe in, and ones that I don't.

If you had to live the rest of your life with the delayed side effects of a medication that you had been prescribed 30+ years ago in two different countries, I'm certain that you'd be far less inclined to take medical and pharmaceutical "progress" for granted. Hopefully you'll never live to experience what I have, and will be for the rest of my days on this planet, whether I die in 5 minutes or in 50 years.

I've already been exposed - both willingly and unwillingly - to things that are *extremely* likely to kill me at some point later in the game. Definitely not laughing at C-19, but it's not the worst thing that the mankind has experienced, not by a long stretch.

There's a lot more that I could say, but have no intention of derailing this thread any further.

I would've been perfectly OK with no one coming up with the vaccine for C-19 in the first place, and the virus being allowed to run its course, which would've been my preferred course of action. Mind you, I'm considered to be "high risk".

If enough people get vaccinated, we'll be rid of the virus in a few months; if not the nightmare will linger on forever.

You are just beginning to live the nightmare, whether you realize it or not, and getting the vaccine isn't going to make it any more palatable in the long run.

If you truly believe that dying of C-19 is the worst thing that can happen to you, then you've lived one heck of a sheltered existence.

To borrow a quote from the late Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovsky: " In your future I have already lived and it's terrible."

[RealBlackStuff]

@exTPfan:
Warning issued and PM sent

[rkawakami]

Short and sweet....

Got my first Moderna shot Friday night at a local pharmacy. So far the expected sore arm is all I can report. Can't feel the nanobots / microchips inside me reporting back to Uncle Bill (or is that the cause of the sore arm????). Scheduled to get the second shot in exactly 4 weeks.

[unixed]

Can you pat your head with one hand while rubbing your stomach in a circular motion with the other?

[789]

all I can report

I consumed my weekly O'Henry bar, no covid here, either.

[rkawakami]

Can you pat your head with one hand while rubbing your stomach in a circular motion with the other?

If I do that it's supposed to magnetize the nanobots. And that's bad.

To answer your query: yes, in both CW and CCW directions. With either hand.

[unixed]

To answer your query: yes, in both CW and CCW directions. With either hand.

nanobots / microchips, see?

[betonhaus]

I do wish they would get to the bottom of the few cases where people had severe side effects like skin sloughing off and explain them, as opposed to simply covering it up and pretending they don't exist. I would be a lot more reassured if they openly admitted them then determined that they were due to specific condition or pre-existing conditions so I could make a more informed decision and know it's safe providing I take certain steps or keep an eye out for something. When you hear horror stories like a person's foot literally exploding but then people refuse to talk about it and make BS excuses it's not really reassuring.

[rkawakami]

When you hear horror stories like a person's foot literally exploding but then people refuse to talk about it and make BS excuses it's not really reassuring.

If you read the story, you'll see this sentence:

Dave had lost three toes on his left foot a few years ago due to complications with diabetes.

One of the results of diabetes is poor blood circulation, especially in the extremities (hands, feet). Untreated cuts can lead to infections an swelling. I believe this falls under the category of a preexisting condition.

Further on down the story, this is also mentioned:

Leg swelling is listed as a very rare side effect of vaccination and symptoms can arise anywhere between four days to four weeks after receiving the jab.

So it's indeterminate what actually caused the man to lose half his leg. I'd still say that odds are better to take the vaccine than not. I'm diabetic and did not hesitate to get my vaccine the other day.

[axur-delmeria]

I wish I had your "5G/mind control/whatever" vaccines. Where I am, the vaccines currently available are:

Sinovac
Sputnik V

The Astrazeneca doses have run out long ago, as health workers and seniors were prioritized.

Even worse, the president got innoculated with Sinopharm, which has yet to be approved in our country. How can the government instill confidence in its vaccination program with circus acts like this?