Stay on Windows 11 or switch to Linux?

[ThinkPad560X]

I finally got a brand new machine. A Dell Inspiron 3020 Small tower. I know it isn't a ThinkPad or ThinkCentre, but I bought it on sale on Dells website. $549 Org $799. I bought this a month ago and had to wait due to back order or something. It has a 13th Gen Core i5 and 8GB RAM with a Nvme 512GB and Windows 11 Home. The Core i7 was $900 but can upgrade to a i7 later if want.

I've been using windows 7 Pro on my ThinkPads and desktops for years and still use 7. I don't care for 10. To me Windows 8/8.1/10 & 11 are all adware windows. I even have my Windows 7 set as classic, so it looks like windows 98/2000 as that is my favorite era of windows. XP and 7 are my favorite thought. Been using windows since 3.1. But with all the hacks going on and AI also helping with hacks I figured just to get a fully up to date machine.

The problem is it has Windows 11. I went through the setup process unclicking auto this and that unclicked set ads to cater to you, send data back to MS. And then once at the desktop MS edge goes through same thing. Had to do the same thing with Windows 10 when using it here and there. I am thinking of removing the 512GB Nvme and buy a 1TB Nvme and install Linux Mint as to not erase the factory OS install on the 512GB. The problem is all my programs may not work on linux. I been using Mint here and there on a few machines to get use to it. But is it worth switching to linux mint or just deal with Windows 11 as from what reading online that web browsers are going to want a digital signed check before you can access their sites. Even heard Google is going to be doing DRM soon too. It seems like the internet is going to be getting locked down soon and your going to have the Apple/Google/Windows and then Linux-Firefox split users.

[TPFanatic]

In my experience the amount of time it takes to setup, customize, and hack, edit: and stabilize Windows to my liking is less than the amount of time it takes to setup, customize, and hack, edit: and stabilize Linux to my liking. So I'll continue enjoying Windows.

Now for some anecdotes:

The last time I tried Ubuntu it automatically used my internet connection to prompt installing a BIOS update. Compare to Windows 7's OOBE which asks your permission before doing updates. And yes I know 8/10/11 don't either.

I have yet to get an Ultranav customized to my preference or Thinkpad Battery charge thresholds to work on Linux.

It took me more than a few days to "learn Linux" enough to get rid of Coreboot on my secondhand X330.

I simply don't have the time for Linux. Windows works. I enjoy Windows.

One last edit:
I finally adopted Windows 10 in order to get proper support for my P71's graphics and the software I wanted to run on it. That particular software doesn't support Linux. I've customized my Windows 10 install to my satisfaction and in some ways I prefer it to 7. If you're not ready for 11, you can give 10 a try.

[dr_st]

The one thing I don't like is the recent Home versions of Windows (since W10).

In Pro version - you control the updates. In Home - the updates control you.

[ThinkPad560X]

I guess i'll just stay with windows 11, plus I'll get full support from MS if need be. I can just keep my Windows 7 ThinkCentre on the side as it has all my activated software on it and may not work when try to reactivate online as it is old software. And I hate the windows Home edition as well as you have no control over the updates. I can probably update the key to pro. It just feels like the more windows advances the less it is yours to control and set how you want it. Still may happen soon where windows goes "Windows as a Service" Even heard that windows 12 will have AI baked in that OS.

This is the other thing that worries me. https://www.windowscentral.com/software ... processors Microsoft can drop CPU support for your PC due to no longer supported cpu on this version build X. I hope we don't get into the smartphone style of PCs where your phone OS is only supported for about 2-3 years and can't be updated to the latest version.

[rumbero]

I guess i'll just stay with windows 11, plus I'll get full support from MS if need be. [...] It just feels like the more windows advances the less it is yours to control and set how you want it. Still may happen soon where windows goes "Windows as a Service" Even heard that windows 12 will have AI baked in that OS.

This is it. Windows and its commercial competitors including Apple's OS offerings and Google's Android are increasingly taking away end user's control possibilities over the OS, treating their "customers" like the anecdotical frog in the boiling pot. Do we really want to be relegated to just being remote controled consumers with no actual influence on the tools we daily use?

Knowing Windows since the days of version 3.11 but always preferably using Linux in parallel, i can only suggest to leave the Windows eco system ASAP. Protesting against these practices won't change anything, only practical steps away from these controlled environments will eventually help. Personally, for the mentioned reasons i consider both Windows 10 and 11 simply unacceptable. They already went too far long ago.

No matter what the anecdotical experience of other people suggest, i'd rather recommend to not rely on the mere opinions of others and actually try out yourself what you are asking about. Only your own patient practical experience can show you over time how your question can be answered.

Linux is the way to go if you want to regain basic control of your own devices.

[TPFanatic]

You can regain basic control of Windows.

[Nirvana09]

You can regain basic control of Windows.

This unfortunately is incorrect. Since Windows 8 especially, Microsoft has given themselves the ability to pick and choose what you have on your computer. I used to have in my backup several important keygens and other 'nefarious' pieces of software that after updating certain computers to Windows 10 ect have been removed from any computer "for my own safety" by Windows. This happened on each computer updated. Windows would also stop me from putting the files back onto the computer and would instantly remove any copy of my files anywhere I tried to install them.

For me this was the last straw, I have been in the process of moving my computing to another operating system.

I've seen the writing on the wall for a long time though, Microsoft has been dubious for much longer than people expect. I used to be a contractor and got a spot back in the late 2000's working on the Kinect. On the very first day of training, our trainer sat my team down and laid it out for us. He explained that the Kinect wasn't some new fun piece of hardware and the technology for the Kinect was actually developed in Israel in the mid 80s as a military technology. Microsoft had purchased the company that currently held the rights years ago and was implementing some of what they learned with the purchase on new tech. I was there for about a year, left when the project was done. Wont ever trust them again.

[ThinkPad560X]

And that is why I am still using windows 7. But as of a few days now like 3. The internet browser Edge isn't processing my paypal payments anymore. Every time I would click make payment it would just load/buffer and bring me back to the make payment. Soon Windows 7's online isn't going to work just like XP and the reason why I quit using XP. I currently installed firefox on 7 and it works now. I don't visit shady sites or miss use the internet and don't click on spam. Although they been getting better and better everyday with fake emails. Always make sure you read the from url link before acting or clicking your account been hacked please click here to verify it wasn't you. I also treat my machines like it is still the 80s /90s that if and when I am done with my PC I shut it down. I don't care for instant power on or sleep mode / update windows while your away.

I knew MS was going to do this one day for your safety. I am wondering if my backup of games for emulation and my ripped music cds "retail store copies" would be considered pirated and removed by MS/windows since they are not digitally signed and from a subscription service.

[dr_st]

I used to have in my backup several important keygens and other 'nefarious' pieces of software that after updating certain computers to Windows 10 ect have been removed from any computer "for my own safety" by Windows. This happened on each computer updated. Windows would also stop me from putting the files back onto the computer and would instantly remove any copy of my files anywhere I tried to install them.

Whenever this happens to me, there is a notification on the Windows Action Center saying that Windows has detected a threat and quarantined it. There is an option "Allow on device" (or "Restore" if it's already been removed) which brings it back, and as far as I can see - Windows remembers this setting and doesn't try to delete the file again.

[Nirvana09]

I used to have in my backup several important keygens and other 'nefarious' pieces of software that after updating certain computers to Windows 10 ect have been removed from any computer "for my own safety" by Windows. This happened on each computer updated. Windows would also stop me from putting the files back onto the computer and would instantly remove any copy of my files anywhere I tried to install them.

Whenever this happens to me, there is a notification on the Windows Action Center saying that Windows has detected a threat and quarantined it. There is an option "Allow on device" (or "Restore" if it's already been removed) which brings it back, and as far as I can see - Windows remembers this setting and doesn't try to delete the file again.

Thanks, but not only have I done that - and more - Windows was very sure to make sure my files were deleted. I tried to create all of the exceptions and make sure they were saved, but it never worked. Eventually things got so bad on my W541, certain files would be removed moments after inserting flashdrives with nothing but those files. This was only present on Windows 10, but not Windows 7. I never had the opportunity to try it on my Win 8 machine but suspect it acts the same as ten does.

[TPFanatic]

I'm sure Defender could be nuked from the registry and replaced with a superior AV or better best practices. That's the nuclear option for lack of customization in the Microsoft software.

[rumbero]

You can regain basic control of Windows.

I doubt that any type of basic control is at all possible without full access to the source code and the ability to modify it according to own wishes.
For Windows and its contenders, the best you can have is the iilusion of control and digital sovereignity granted by Microsoft/Apple/Google.

In this context i recommend the lecure of this rather long article:
theupheaval.substack.com/p/the-china-convergence.

[TPFanatic]

I accept the terms of the licensed software provided to me. There is no illusion.

[Summilux]

I still haven't been able to get my integrated wifi chip to work with Linux Mint.
And that's after I spent a long time googling for tutorial, drivers, etc.

I'm sure the OS is decent but it's pretty pathetic that on my particular setup it can't even do such a basic task as to connect to the Internet.

Meanwhile, Windows post-Win 7 has become disgusting.

I'm desperate for React OS to come out of alpha...

[axur-delmeria]

I still haven't been able to get my integrated wifi chip to work with Linux Mint.
And that's after I spent a long time googling for tutorial, drivers, etc.

You could run

Code: Select all

lspci -nnk

and post only the parts that are relevant to the WiFi chip. Maybe I can help/

[WarhawkCZ]

Linux is great for older machines, where most things work already. I now dual-boot a fairly new machine (Framework 13) and spend more time with windows 11. It simply works. The linux distro (Fedora) is not able to accelerate e.g. browser out of the box. I had to spend time installing codecs, activating acceleration in Firefox, partial scaling on high-res screens is a problem, wayland vs x11, etc. etc.
Of course, it is doable, but I have a family and garden that I rather spend time with. I don't want to spend my evenings finding out things that don't work.
Problems I describe are not necessarily problems of Linux but rather manufacturers. However, this is what Linux users have to face.

PS: My favorite distro for older machines is MX linux.

[whoknows88]

I have some thoughts for the OP.

I recently got back into gaming, and of course wanted Windows to be able to play them without issue (Wine being spotty at best). I found out my old gaming laptop had a free upgrade to Windows 11...

I use TinyWall firewall to block windows updates. If I truly need an update, I can get it through the microsoft update catalog. So no forced updates on me. Also, I did some tweaks, like disabled the Connected User Experience and Telemetry service. I used Microsoft's own winget program to uninstall the microsoft store, cortana, photos, xbox stuff, etc. All in all, I'm quite happy with the result. As far as I know (though don't quote me, but I think this is true) no Microsoft telemetry is getting back to them. But make sure to use TinyWall and uncheck Windows Update.

Windows 12 is supposedly coming in June of 2024, which will feature Microsoft Copilot (aka OpenAI's ChatGPT) and I will *not* install it. I really think Windows 11 will be my last Windows before I go back to linux full time. Just saying, it takes a little work, but Windows 11 is useful once you "tame" it. No need for third party utilities except TinyWall. I really cannot recommend that firewall enough. Windows own firewall will bypass your settings if you try to block Windows update, but I've confirmed that TinyWall works (and is virus free via VirusTotal). I strongly recommend it.

To use winget, after installed, just type "winget list" in the commad prompt to get a list of apps installed, then "winget delete <program>" to delete them. Easy peasy.

Oh, and if you want a Windows Photos alternative, try Irfanview. It's very lightweight.

I hope this post helps someone.

[dr_st]

No need for third party utilities except TinyWall. I really cannot recommend that firewall enough. Windows own firewall will bypass your settings if you try to block Windows update, but I've confirmed that TinyWall works (and is virus free via VirusTotal). I strongly recommend it.

If you have Win11 Pro, you don't need third party tools to block updates, because it can be controlled via group policy.

To use winget, after installed, just type "winget list" in the commad prompt to get a list of apps installed, then "winget delete <program>" to delete them. Easy peasy.

That's very nice and scriptable. Probably what IT departments use.

Oh, and if you want a Windows Photos alternative, try Irfanview. It's very lightweight.

Seconded. I absolutely love Irfanview.

I hope this post helps someone.

I'm sure it will, thanks for sharing!

[whoknows88]

If you have Win11 Pro, you don't need third party tools to block updates, because it can be controlled via group policy.

I didn't know that. I got stuck with Windows 11 Home with my free upgrade. I use VeraCrypt for encryption also. I personally think it's better than bitlocker, cause you get 512 bit encryption vs. Bitlocker's 256 bit, but that's probably just more personal preference than anything.

But for those limited to Windows 11 Home, I use TinyWall and VeraCrypt. They serve me well.

[ThinkPad560X]

I decided to install a 1TB M.2 SSD into my brand new Dell Inspiron 3020 that came pre-installed with windows 11 home. (Had this machine since sep 2023 now) I was going to install Linux mint on it but decided to test out the machine in the bios and see how these new machines work. From the Dell bios it can test system hardware and also "Requires internet connection" restore system OS. So I clicked on this to see if it would actually install windows without a flash drive / iso or disc and it formatted the M.2 and downloaded reinstalled windows 11 Home from the bios and even has the Windows key embedded in the system bios. They started doing this since windows 8. For a nonPC tech person this is great as they can get back there system to what it was before they replaced the M.2 that say their friend said to upgrade there hard drive for more storage for gaming and such. After that Windows even restored my system to 3 images I have saved and websites and passwords. I didn't even use Onedrive or signup for it. But it shows everything from OneDrive, even the typing and inking was there and I switched all this off during installation. Same with Windows 10 installation I switch everything off. Again for a non PC tech knowledge person this would be great and can get you back on track, even on a new PC too. But on the bad It seem like you don't own your PC and MS has all your data backed up. It also feels like if I would install Linux on this machine that MS could if they wanted to reinstall windows. MS even has their Windows key and whatever else in the bios alone. I am still running windows 7 Pro and Ultimate on my machines and a Linux mint machine. I got this dell tower to have a brand new machine from this decade and to have the latest Intel 13Gen Processor and DDR4 memory. It seems all makers are making this micro towers and not much room to upgrade, even for Lenovo. It seems MS is trying to do what apple is doing and only Windows will be the OS of choice for the PC platform. CPUs and windows config to only work with each other and Linux devs will have to work around this. Not to mention AI and Windows.

Also in the bios it tells me the purchase date and when I first started using this machine.

[ThinkPad560X]

I was just reading and it seems Microsoft has discontinued/disabled use of Windows 7 keys for Windows 10 and 11 for use now. Is this true? I know they did that Windows 10 Free upgrade from 2015 to 2016 for one year but after that you still could use the 7 keys. If it is then I guess some of my machines if wanted to update to windows 10 with that COA on them will not work now. I wounder if bios Windows 8 and 8.1 keys will be blocked as well.

[TPFanatic]

Correct, neither 7 nor 8 licenses can be converted to 10/11 in any way anymore.

[ThinkPad560X]

I guess Linux will be the better option then. I don't think it will be long where windows will be a monthly / yearly subscription soon "W12". Sometimes I will get machines in that ran Windows 7 or 8 and the person wants 10 on it or eventually 11 and now they will have to buy a new key. And I install any version of windows for free if anyone needed a reinstall or upgrade using their old key. For windows 8/8.1 users that key is in the bios and not sure if bought a 10 or 11 key would update the bios key or not. I am guessing not.

[TPFanatic]

I’m running some of my win10 machines without licenses. Aside from the overlay in the corner and getting locked out of further customization (i got my customization in during the honeymoon period) it functions just fine.

[ThinkPad560X]

Yea if install windows 10 without internet you can customize how you want it. But once connected, it locks everything out until activated.

[TPFanatic]

I think I was able to extend the honeymoon period with network connectivity by setting the firewall to block all outbound connections with the exception of my browser. Only after I temporarily allowed all outbounds and manually encouraged it to check activation did it lock down. I had done an in place upgrade from 7 to 10 and wanted to see for myself that the free upgrade was indeed gone.

[mikemex]

It seems all makers are making this micro towers and not much room to upgrade, even for Lenovo.

You can still build your own machine. They still sell ATX motherboards. There are literally dozens of nice cases for them to suit your taste. Such motherboards still come with regular PCI Express slots and even SATA ports, last time I checked. There are DIMMs of any size you want. You have to admit that you decided to lock yourself up by buying propietary stuff, so don't complain.

See, people complained about getting integrated sound cards in the 2000 (I had a really nice Aureal Vortex 2 PCI sound card back then), Nobody thinks about such things now. People just adapt. The world isn't going to stop turning just because we're getting old and expect things to be done in the old fashion.

It is true that Microsoft is trying to do the same thing Google has been doing all along with Android: lock us via an account that you requiere to run the software. They have turned us into passive audience so they can collect rent every month. Why people complain about Windows working that way and nobody says anything about Android?

This freedom issue has been in the air ever since Richard Stallman began his campaign for Free Software. The problem is, Stallman was good at pointing at problems, but was never good at providing practical solutions for them. For some reason FSF people don't believe in associating (read: legally associating) and do things in a serious way. They could be attacking the issue from both fronts by now: hardware and software.

They've had decades to prove to be a viable alternative and they have failed. Thing is, great tasks requiere some individual sacrifice. And that's the Achilles' heel of western civilization: we're too individualistic. Even here, people are just concerned about their individual tastes and goals. There are rarely discussions about organizing under the premise that compromise is vital to work effectively for the greater good.

[axur-delmeria]

See, people complained about getting integrated sound cards in the 2000 (I had a really nice Aureal Vortex 2 PCI sound card back then),

Funnily enough, I have two PCI sound cards in storage:

* Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live!
* generic Crystal Soundfusion CS4280

I tested the latter on a Pentium E5400 desktop that was recently given to me. Had to grab some firmware files to make it work on Debian-- said files are part of ALSA but are binary-only, and more importantly, have no license included. Because of this, Debian cannot include those files in its packages.

Reference: https://wiki.debian.org/snd-cs46xx

[TPFanatic]

Why people complain about Windows working that way and nobody says anything about Android?

I’ve got enough problems with Android that I use an iPhone.

[ThinkPad560X]

So I was going to activate windows 7 Pro key "OEM COA on top of machine case" on my DELL Vostro 460 that I upgraded to Windows 10 Pro. Everything is original, even the 250GB HDD that I plan to replace one day. I type the key in on version 20H2. Keeps saying "Your device is missing important security and quality fixes." And keeps saying it after pressing the check for updates button. So, I figured windows needed activated to update further.

It turns out that Microsoft has completely shutdown windows 7 and 8/8.1 keys for windows 10/11 upgrades now. https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/11/239 ... activation

I am reading that if I sign into my MS account that has a windows 10 active key will that key be used on this machine? And if so, does that mean I can use any windows 10/11 unactivated versions in my PC collection on one MS account then as long as I am signed in, it activates it? It says to that any windows 7/8/8.1 key that was used to upgrade to 10/11 that it is now a digital key for 10/11.

On my desktop now it is saying: We can't activate Windows on this device because you don't have a valid digital license or product key. If you think you do have a valid license or key, select Troubleshoot below. Error code: 0x803FA067

UPDATE: After typing the 7 key that came on the machine, it acts like it is going to active and loads to another small windows that says Do you want to activate, and I click yes, and it loads for a few minutes and then get that red letter error code. I just went onto a site that is selling Windows 10 Pro keys and bought one for $5 and it activated.

So, I guess my T410 and other machines I didn't upgrade to 10 at the time can't use their keys now. So far Windows 7 will still activate "IF YOU ARE ON SERVICE PACK 1" It needs a fully up to date windows 7 for activation to work and to service pack 1 to get windows update to work like it should. For Windows XP you have to call the Windows activation center to activate windows XP. That was like 2020 or 2021 I last time I install XP for someone.