Thinkpads Forum

Those amongst you can be bothered to read my posts (rants ?) about operating systems are likely aware of the fact that for the past couple of years I've been running a "locked down" version of W7 Ultimate on my "main" systems. Some may also remember that I have a tendency of wiping the SSD and performing a fresh install every six months or so.

Well, that task is on the list again - mostly due to the fact that I have some days off coming my way - but this time around I'm contemplating the idea of not re-installing W7 at all, and going with Mint LMDE instead as the only operating system on my well-worn-but-still-running (knock on wood) T61p.

Why ?

At this point in the game there is exactly ONE program that I use on regular basis that requires Windows (or Mac, but I'm not going there) environment and has very low processing power requirements so I could use my T43pSF or even my ancient A31p for that purpose, since XP is still fully supported by it. That's it. As in "really it". Everything else plays very well with Linux.

I'm not in the least concerned about the "2020 doomsday" for W7 since I've locked the WU out quite some time ago, and my world hasn't come to an end. No hackers out there have shown even the slightest interest in silly old me. Quite disappointing, I know...

My train of thoughts is mostly tied to the hardware level. There is a very reasonable likelihood of a decent (sans keyboard, most likely, unfortunately) 3:2 system in the near future, and chances are that W7 will not be on the list of supported operating systems, hardware-wise. Since W10 will never become an option for any of my personal systems, I may as well switch fully to Linux now and be fairly well-versed in it when the hardware I'm interested in hits the market. There's next to no doubt in my mind that the zillion of *nix developers out there will be creating support shortly after such a laptop is released.

What - if anything - am I missing here ? Talk me out of moving away from Windows, oh The Voices Of Reason on TPF...

Looking forward to any and all reasonable opinions.

I used Ubuntu for a week or so. Didn't like it. Doesn't mean other distros are better but if you are looking for a devil's advocate answer for SPECIFICALLY UBUNTU,you've come to the right place.

1st: It ain't great on reliablilty, and shows it's Linux roots very well. The boot screen regularly looked like a Unix boot and wasn't as appealing as Windows seamless experience. It crashed a few times and had some problems with system files over the week or so I used it.

2nd: Software is not great when used to windows. Not much to say here, it's Linux, there isn't as many programs to use.

3rd: The GUI is pretty poor, well getting to apps is a pain and multitasking is about as good as W3.1.

4th: This isn't so much a problem as a nitpick, especially because aple does the same thing. WHY DOES THE BRIGHTNESS GO TO ZERO?!? It should go to very dim but never zero. Then I don't know if the LCD is working right and it annoys me to no end.

I tried it about a year ago. Don't remember most of it,so there is probably at least a half dozen more problems I didn't mention/remember.

Thinkpad4by3 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:46 pm

I used Ubuntu for a week or so. Didn't like it. Doesn't mean other distros are better but if you are looking for a devil's advocate answer for SPECIFICALLY UBUNTU,you've come to the right place.

LMDE is Debian-based. Nothing to do with Ubuntu which I dislike for the most part myself.

ajkula66 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Thinkpad4by3 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:46 pm

I used Ubuntu for a week or so. Didn't like it. Doesn't mean other distros are better but if you are looking for a devil's advocate answer for SPECIFICALLY UBUNTU,you've come to the right place.

LMDE is Debian-based. Nothing to do with Ubuntu which I dislike for the most part myself.

Whoops .
Well I've used Raspbian, which I do know is Debian based and that I never had a problem with besides program support and a few problems that were based on the RPI, not specifically the OS. Always pretty stable and pretty quick, even on the little 700mhz ARM core. Just my 0.02¢.

Yeah I've been playing with the "live" version of the latest LMDE beta for the past week and have gotten to like it a lot. While my preference is still Red Hat/Cent OS in certain respects, LMDE has provided me with a smoother overall experience for *my* needs.

I'm unlikely to get anything done before this coming weekend, so keep the opinions coming...

Just my (Cdn) 2 cents worth George...

I'm partial to Debian distributions as well, but have never found the Trackpoint adjustments to be as precise as in Windows.

Please keep us posted on how the transition progresses. I'm rootin' for ya!

Regards.

Dave

ajkula66 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:10 pm

I have a tendency of wiping the SSD and performing a fresh install every six months or so.

With Windows 10, you don't need to do that.

From what I gather, Windows 10 does that FOR you, whether you like it or not.
No thanks.

I'm also about ready to switch over to Linux.
Be interesting to see what comes out of this.

pianowizard wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:20 am

ajkula66 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:10 pm

I have a tendency of wiping the SSD and performing a fresh install every six months or so.

With Windows 10, you don't need to do that.

I would rather go back to 701C, install W98 and use it as my daily driver...

Not moving to W10. Ever. Period, end of story.

I use Debian in many of my ThinkPads and I never had any issue. Coincidentally, I installed LXDE not so long ago on an old X41 with an IDE SSD and I was positively surprised how well it worked (same on an old Toughbook of similar age that I later gave away).

Playing devil's advocate , my main gripe with Linux on notebooks is the reduced battery life compared to Windows, even after installing TLP and using other tricks available on the web. This may be of less importance if you plan to use it in a Workstation

And keep devil-ish... Why not Win10? It's fast, it's stable, and two of its most hated features (Forced updates, telemetry) are easy to overcome if you follow some interwebs forums ...

-

In my hunt for usable programs, I found a Linux-version of Foxit PDF-reader with the good old Classic Toolbar instead of that horrible Ribbon:
http://www.techoism.com/install-foxit-reader-for-linux/

The last Windows Foxit PDF-reader with Classic Toolbar is here: http://cdn01.foxitsoftware.com/pub/foxi ... _Setup.exe
Don't forget to immediately set Updates to NEVER.

olex126 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:12 am

I'm partial to Debian distributions as well, but have never found the Trackpoint adjustments to be as precise as in Windows.

This is a 100% valid complaint. Having said that, I can live with what I found in LMDE after minimal tweaking. Obviously, YMMV.

Tasurinchi wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:30 am

I use Debian in many of my ThinkPads and I never had any issue. Coincidentally, I installed LXDE not so long ago on an old X41 with an IDE SSD and I was positively surprised how well it worked (same on an old Toughbook of similar age that I later gave away).

Playing devil's advocate , my main gripe with Linux on notebooks is the reduced battery life compared to Windows, even after installing TLP and using other tricks available on the web. This may be of less importance if you plan to use it in a Workstation

And keep devil-ish... Why not Win10? It's fast, it's stable, and two of its most hated features (Forced updates, telemetry) are easy to overcome if you follow some interwebs forums ...

Yes, loss of battery life in *nix environments is real. But - as you've already guessed - it makes just about zero difference to me since this system lives plugged in, 24/7/365.

As for W10...the list of "why not" reasons is *way* too long but some of them would include:

a) When I tested W10 on an Intel-based T61 build, it ran 10 degrees C hotter OOTB. Now, this is a "p"...if I want to fry eggs, I have a stove, no need to use CPU/GPU for those purposes.

b) I've recently attended a seminar where all the PCs - supplied by the vendor who was in charge of it - ran W10 and I found myself wanting to punch a hole in the monitor in a matter of two minutes. That's how much the UI irritates me. Can it be tweaked ? Of course. I just don't feel like wasting my time on it.

c) Over the past two years or so I've had numerous conversations with people who had spent decades running IT departments for some serious corporations and none of them was convinced that telemetry can be completely turned off in W10.

d) As for "fast and stable"...I haven't had stability issues with any OS that I've ever used apart from XP, and rest assured that W2K on an SSD in my T43pSF is beyond fast and stable as well...

And there's more BUT I'm really not trying to turn this thread into another one dealing with pros and cons of W10...

Have you considered Windows 8.1? The full-screen Metro Start Menu is annoying, but you can use Classic Shell to bring back the Classic Start Menu. Other than the Metro Start Menu, Windows 8.1 resembles Win 7 more than Win 10 both functionally and visually, and its right-click Start Menu is awesome.

It's a pity that most people have forgotten about Win 8.1 so fast. It's an excellent option for Win 10 haters.

pianowizard wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:57 am

Have you considered Windows 8.1?

Not for a split second.

It's an excellent option for Win 10 haters.

Reminds me of having a choice between lung cancer and a malignant brain tumour, albeit on a far less serious level...

Thanks but no thanks.

What problems did you have with Windows 8.1?

pianowizard wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:04 am

What problems did you have with Windows 8.1?

I'd take 10 over 8.1. I'd rather be watched being somewhat productive than watch myself trying to be productive without a start menu.

pianowizard wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:04 am

What problems did you have with Windows 8.1?

Honestly, I was so turned off by W8 UI that I haven't really played much with it.

The bigger point here is that I don't see anything that even a tweaked 8.1 would offer me that W7 doesn't. Hardware that I'm hoping for won't be supported by it, which is the main reason for my intended dive into Linux.

Thinkpad4by3 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:10 am

without a start menu.

Like I said, there is Classic Shell for bringing that back in Win 8.1.

ajkula66 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:12 am

The bigger point here is that I don't see anything that even a tweaked 8.1 would offer me that W7 doesn't.

During the ~2 years that I used 8.1, I found it faster and more stable than 7, and it occupied less storage space because by then 7 had already had tons of updates, which could also have contributed to its sluggishness. Some say 8.1 is more secure than 7 as well. But my #1 favorite 8.1 feature was the right-click Start Menu, which Win 10 retained.

Many people complained that, in Win 8.1, it took many clicks to get to the Control Panel. At first that bothered me too, until I realized that Win 8.1's right-click Start Menu contained the Control Panel, so it actually took fewer clicks to get there than under Win 7. And of course, it's super easy to add a Control Panel icon to the Start Menu.

Yes, it takes time to tweak 8.1 (or 10 for that matter), but it takes much longer to tweak Linux, and even with tweaks, Linux may still not work as well as Windows.

Just acting like a devil's advocate, as you requested.

pianowizard wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:49 am

During the ~2 years that I used 8.1, I found it faster and more stable than 7, and it occupied less storage space because by then 7 had already had tons of updates, which could also have contributed to its sluggishness. Some say 8.1 is more secure than 7 as well. But my #1 favorite 8.1 feature was the right-click Start Menu, which Win 10 retained.

TBT, I've never experienced any stability issues with W7. The idea of an OS being "faster" than the other one would not be enough to make me move for that reason alone.

Yes, it takes time to tweak 8.1 (or 10 for that matter), but it takes much longer to tweak Linux, and even with tweaks, Linux may still not work as well as Windows.

Well, I'm not all that certain that it will take me *that* long to tweak LMDE, but that aspect remains to be seen. And for 99% of my current - very minimized, compared to the years gone by - usage, it runs as well as W7.

Just acting like a devil's advocate, as you requested.

And I would expect no less, my friend...

That's one of the reasons I hold your views in high regard even when I disagree with them, which is quite often...

I played around with Linux from about 2004-ish until about 2010 before installing it as my only operating system. IMHO you should just do it. You're a technically-oriented person and the OS gives you complete control, which is what you're looking for. So why would I try to talk you out of it?

I'd rather try to talk you into a straight Debian system. Debian stable is rock solid. No problems ever. Like Tasurinchi, I run Debian with the LXDE desktop on my R500 and even 10 years down the road, I see no need to update my hardware. The system is fast and responsive and the desktop allows for some nice customizations. I have a Thinkpad Yoga 260 with Win10 for work and I still prefer the R500 at home.

You mentioned a program that requires Windows or Mac. Will it run on WINE? Or would it run on Win2K or WinXP in virtualbox? I run Win2K in virtualbox with no hiccups and my hardware is not that much of an upgrade on yours.

Anyways, I say go for it. I know I was supposed to play devil's advocate but I just can't. Make the switch sooner than later. You'll be so glad you did.

Omineca wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:36 pm

You're a technically-oriented person and the OS gives you complete control, which is what you're looking for. So why would I try to talk you out of it?

Thank you for the kind words, but that description would've been more fitting a decade ago. Nowadays I'm just old, grouchy and lacking patience....

I'd rather try to talk you into a straight Debian system. Debian stable is rock solid. No problems ever. Like Tasurinchi, I run Debian with the LXDE desktop on my R500 and even 10 years down the road, I see no need to update my hardware.

The problem with Debian is the lack of "live" CD/DVD - at least to my knowledge - which would enable me to test the environment without installing it. Call it "an old man's security blanket" if you will...

You mentioned a program that requires Windows or Mac. Will it run on WINE? Or would it run on Win2K or WinXP in virtualbox? I run Win2K in virtualbox with no hiccups and my hardware is not that much of an upgrade on yours.

Nah, I'll just run it on a different machine. I've been contemplating moving all of my "creative" stuff to a separate system for a while now anyway.

Anyways, I say go for it. I know I was supposed to play devil's advocate but I just can't. Make the switch sooner than later. You'll be so glad you did.

Thank you. Updates on this entire saga should be coming shortly...

ajkula66 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:59 am

- at least to my knowledge - which would enable me to test the environment without installing it

Of course there is: https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

On the "surface" Debian is not much different than any other Distro IMO. I personally use Cinnamon on new hardware or Gnome classic or LXDE on older ones. A big plus of Debian in my view is the extensive forum, and that the rather slow and stable release cycle (I'm too lazy to update versions every 4 or so months...)

Tasurinchi wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:20 am

Of course there is: https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

Thank you, downloading as I'm typing this...

Update: just booted the "live" Debian DVD and am typing this post using it. Thank you, Tasurinchi and Omineca, will keep everyone posted...

Main reasons for not moving IMO roughly in order top to bottom. Like any transition DO YOUR RESEARCH before you flick the switch

1) Your a gamer who plays premium titles who do not support any form of Linux. Windows will always get preferential treatment wrt features & driver dev mindset - that won't change regardless of what Linux mavens say.

2) You don't want to occasionally to get you hands dirty in a terminal and/or have no interest in learning about the various distros available. It'll take you a while to find the best distro to suit workflow, taste in aesthetics, differing DE/WM's for your needs/hw.

3) Your software isn't available in a Linux variant. Linux has lots of good software but the chances of getting a workflow/feature identical replacement are low. Especially on the expensive niche side of things. A lot of software was created to scratch someone's itch & the UNIX mantra is do one thing and do it well.

4) Ultra-new hardware that must just work - i.e Lenovo is aggressive in supporting certain types of new hardware and software configurations for best windows support - it can take up to 6 months or more for Linux to play catch up depending on early [ or any] dev access to the hw & hw documentation. i.e X1C 6th Gen BIOS sleep modes not working due to using a cutting edge ultra low power sleep state atm only supported in Windows with no/minimal public documentation available. For obscure hw remember the "scratch the itch" comment - you may have google obscure githubs for help.

5) your a BSD freak

I'll take 2,3,and 5(SunOS 4.1.3 )

@Dekks:

Many thanks for a well-positioned reply. Here's where I am at the moment:

1) I don't do any PC gaming. A conventional, real-world pinball machine is much more of my cup of tea.

2) Having used various *nix distros on recreational basis over the past decade, I have a decent understanding - at least I believe so - of what's out there, broadly speaking. Getting my hands dirty is something that I'll probably be doing only if I hit a major roadblock somewhere along the way.

3) My software requirements nowadays are extremely basic. For the stuff that is not there in Linux - or I haven't discovered the alternative yet, which is quite possible - there will always be a backup system running some flavour of Windows, but as I've stated in the OP, that's exactly one program nowadays.

4) My days of being an early adopter in *any* area of life are long gone. I'm reasonably certain than if and when a piece of new hardware that I'm interested in hits the market, *nix developers will be playing with it long before I actually decide to purchase it.

5) Haven't touched BSD in many years...have about zero recollection what the entire environment feels like. Not on my "to do" list anytime soon.

(Not Devil's Advocate, I know, but...)
Put Linux on your favorite machine, and Windows on your least favorite. Or, put the Windows machine in the garage?

bayou self wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:54 pm

Put Linux on your favorite machine, and Windows on your least favorite. Or, put the Windows machine in the garage?

Unfortunately, I don't have a garage any more, so there goes that idea. I also happen to like the few old ThinkPads that I have left...

I'm running Mac OSX 10.8.5 Mountain Lion on my T61p, I have a second hdd in a tray. Had to change wifi card for Broadcom 4311 (Dell 1490) because of compatibility, everything else is working (almost) out of the box, including nVidia hardware acceleration. Better and more usable than Linux, much faster than Win7. If you insist on Linux, try Zorin, it's Ubuntu based distribution, good polished one.