Grumpy Old Man Wonders: Why do new Thinkpads need updates right out of the box??

[pkiff]

I guess I have reached the grumpy old man stage of computer use.

I bought a couple new Thinkpads over the past month - including one of the fancy new X1 Extreme Gen 4's and a second X1 Tablet Gen 3. In both cases, I have had to spend time updating the machines as soon as I opened them up and pulled them out of the box. In the case of the X1 Tablet, I had to perform BIOS and firmware updates - which as you know, look like you are running something written in DOS in the 1980s (because essentially you are).

Is this what happens when someone buys a new Mac? How did we get to a point where it was in any way acceptable for a company to ship you a $2000+ computer that requires the end user to run BIOS updates before they even get started using it. I mean, I guess I understand the logistics of why this happens - thousands of units are packaged up with a single disk image and then stored and shipped on demand from wherever. And presumably the complexity of managing and updating images for so many models that are selling such low numbers becomes a waste of time for the manufacturer. But I still feel like this is a terrible place for us to have ended up in terms of service for technology that is so expensive and that is used every day.

Can you imagine if someone sold you a car and said you had to spend an hour or two updating the firmware before you could go on a trip with it? Or sold you a phone that was insecure and unsafe to use before you spent a couple hours updating it? (Actually, maybe this does happen with phones, too - which is equally terrible!).

/End of grumpy-old-man-rant>

[olex126]

Pkiff...it's not just Lenovo laptops...

My girlfriend recently plunked down 80k for a brand new 2022 Dodge Ram pickup...almost every bell and whistle included...

On the day she picked it up, and before she left the dealer's lot, a "software upgrade" was required to allow some of the "features" to function properly...including standard features found on new vehicles nowadays like the backup camera!

After a week on the road, she was noticing niggling problems with most of the "bells and whistles" (including the aforementioned backup camera), which could only be cured by a trip to the dealer for yet another "software upgrade!".... and the backup camera is STILL not functioning correctly!

It would appear we are are destined to be forever beholden to the "upgrade" path no matter what we may wish otherwise.

I feel your frustration though!

Regards.

Dave

[unix_joe]

Software is so complicated these days and security vulnerabilities are discovered at an incredible pace. I would be slightly worried if there *weren't* security updates and bugfixes for a laptop that has been sitting in a box for a couple of months.

Even Apple devices need updating. Although, I've found that buying from the refurbished store, the devices are almost always up to date. Firmware updates are cleaner looking on macOS; they are built into regular OS updates. One should never see a command prompt on an Apple device. Even the Recovery mode is a brilliant GUI with Retina graphics.

Apple is so good at keeping stock up to date on software, that when I recently turned in my son's iPad Mini 5 for warranty replacement (he broke the screen), the replacement device came with iOS 15.1. I had been hoping to stay on iOS 14 due to the new CSAM policy.

I guess on ThinkPads, I never really think about it. I already expect that after unboxing, in order to get a functioning computer, I will be removing the factory SSD, installing my own, and then installing a respectable operating system on it.

Software updates on a car ... that's complete bull [censored]. I like a clean separation between consumer tech and driving. My wife's 2013 Ford was fully loaded and "high tech" at the time. Eight years later, it complains at every startup that the SD card has gone bad, and makes us acknowledge through a laggy touch screen that we understand this, before we can do anything functional. That POS software controls the radio and climate controls. When I get behind the wheel of my nearly stock Mercury, there's no such complaining. In fact, the Mercury is probably more high-tech than the Ford, because it uses a cigarette lighter FM transmitter to play music. The FM transmitter is Bluetooth 5, connects every time without issue, and has USB-C on it with PD quick charging ... none of that was available when the Ford was released. In my opinion, buying a vehicle for the technology just locks you in to an era, and it will artificially make a good vehicle seem very old very quickly. Don't get me started on the Teslas with their cheap Android panels with pwm so bad that they make the ThinkPad screens from a few years ago look nice.

[RealBlackStuff]

One of the reasons why I don't buy anything 'technical', like computers or cars, in new condition!
For one, you save a fair amount of money and you can check what you get before you buy it.
My 'latest' laptop (X250) is from 2015, bought in 2019.
It only needed a new fan (fan error) and another base (crack in it).
It runs W7 perfectly without ANY updates (BIOS or OS).

Some OT/useless info on the side:
My previous car (in USA) was a Hyundai Santa Fe from 2005, bought in 2009, sold in 2019.
My 'latest' car (in Ireland) is a Hyundai iX20 from 2015, bought in 2019.
After my own inspection (in a grey past I was an automotive engineer) the car only needed its ECU retuned before delivery.
Since then, only the annual services, although they were hardly necessary.
Because of this (after I started keeping track of fuel-consumption):
between 10/2019 and 10/2020 I drove exactly 2,176 miles / 3,481 KM
between 10/2020 and 10/2021 I drove exactly 2,273 miles / 3,638 KM
Compare that to the ~75,000 miles / 120,000 KM per year when I was still working...
(In those days I leased my cars and wrote them off as company expenses).

Conclusion: keep buying used and enjoy the savings!

[pkiff]

Pkiff...it's not just Lenovo laptops...My girlfriend recently plunked down 80k for a brand new 2022 Dodge Ram pickup...almost every bell and whistle included...On the day she picked it up, and before she left the dealer's lot, a "software upgrade" was required to allow some of the "features" to function properly...including standard features found on new vehicles nowadays like the backup camera!

Hah, I guess my example of how buying a new car would be different simply reinforced the point instead of serving as a counter example. is right.

Software is so complicated these days and security vulnerabilities are discovered at an incredible pace. I would be slightly worried if there *weren't* security updates and bugfixes for a laptop that has been sitting in a box for a couple of months.
Even Apple devices need updating. Although, I've found that buying from the refurbished store, the devices are almost always up to date.

Yeah, I get that keeping a device secure now requires almost daily updates to one piece of software or another. Your point about the experience of buying refurbished reminds me that I really should see if I can find a quality refurbished outlet here in Toronto. I used to go to specific stores, but they've all gone out of business, and I guess I've become accustomed now to buying all my equipment online. If I am going to complain about the state of computer service, I should support local stores that provide real service.

One of the reasons why I don't buy anything 'technical', like computers or cars, in new condition!
For one, you save a fair amount of money and you can check what you get before you buy it [....] Conclusion: keep buying used and enjoy the savings!

Yes, your approach is right! And up until the past few years, I also only bought used - generally 3 yrs or more after a model is released - around the time when large corporate leases are ending and end-of-lease machines are starting to flood the market for cheap.

But I've also been waiting over 5 years now to see a new model of Thinkpad that I could imagine using. Originally I was holding out for a classic keyboard, but I was disappointed by the CPU and screen of the Anniversary T25, and there hasn't been anything since. The new X1 Extreme Gen 4 and P1 machines at least have a 16:10 screen along with proper high performance CPUs - which doesn't make up for the keyboard, but is enough for me to bite the bullet now. If I wait for those to go on sale used, I'm going to be waiting another couple years. And the CPU in my W520 is already showing its age in my daily work (which sometimes includes compiling code or large databases).

Phil.

[dr_st]

But I've also been waiting over 5 years now to see a new model of Thinkpad that I could imagine using. Originally I was holding out for a classic keyboard, but I was disappointed by the CPU and screen of the Anniversary T25, and there hasn't been anything since. The new X1 Extreme Gen 4 and P1 machines at least have a 16:10 screen along with proper high performance CPUs - which doesn't make up for the keyboard, but is enough for me to bite the bullet now.

So just the keyboard wasn't enough for you to bite the bullet on a TP25, but a workstation-class CPU + screen is enough for you to bite the bullet on a P1/X1E? I guess this means that screen ratio/resolution and CPU performance are more important to you than the 7-row keyboard layout. For me it's the opposite. Probably more people feel like you than like me, which is why taller screens are making a comeback, while 7-row keyboards, at the moment, are not.

Did you consider the T480 QHD in a TP25 shell mod at any point?

[pkiff]

But I've also been waiting over 5 years now to see a new model of Thinkpad that I could imagine using. Originally I was holding out for a classic keyboard, but I was disappointed by the CPU and screen of the Anniversary T25, and there hasn't been anything since. The new X1 Extreme Gen 4 and P1 machines at least have a 16:10 screen along with proper high performance CPUs - which doesn't make up for the keyboard, but is enough for me to bite the bullet now.

So just the keyboard wasn't enough for you to bite the bullet on a TP25, but a workstation-class CPU + screen is enough for you to bite the bullet on a P1/X1E? I guess this means that screen ratio/resolution and CPU performance are more important to you than the 7-row keyboard layout. For me it's the opposite. Probably more people feel like you than like me, which is why taller screens are making a comeback, while 7-row keyboards, at the moment, are not.

Yeah, I would have thought that the keyboard was more important to me. But I've been using a P52 from work and a personal X1 Carbon Tablet (3rd gen) for a couple years now, and I'm starting to live with the new normal of Lenovo chicklet keyboards - they are good keyboards for chicklet style, even though they don't compare to the classics. I'm docked at a desk more than half the time, and when I am, I still use an old Thinkpad USB Keyboard with Trackpoint (SK-8855), so I haven't entirely given up on good keyboards.

Did you consider the T480 QHD in a TP25 shell mod at any point?

No, but perhaps I haven't really followed the mods that incorporate the T25 keyboard as closely as I should have. Part of why I went with an X1 Carbon Tablet 3rd gen instead of a T25 is that I figured that if I was going to go with a low-power CPU, then I might get a true tablet form factor while I was at it. The T25 has an i7-7500U, and my tiny X1 Tablet has an i7-8650U - it's actually faster than a T25. And my current clunky W520 has an i7 quad core that is not really much different in terms of speed compared to either of those. And I guess I worried about parts for the T25 since it was a limited edition model. Though it looks like those 480 mods really don't use much of the T25 at all aside from the keyboard - which is the one thing that I REALLY REALLY wish I had.

And I'm making more and more use of Thunderbolt and long battery and small charging options that are available with some of these newer machines - and I don't hate that.

[unix_joe]

One of the reasons why I don't buy anything 'technical', like computers or cars, in new condition!
For one, you save a fair amount of money and you can check what you get before you buy it.
...

Conclusion: keep buying used and enjoy the savings!

My car is one of the last Mercury's that was ever made; mine is dated 17 December 2010 (there were about 250 made that year, and the last one rolled off the line the first week of January 2011). So I'm hoping this is something that I can keep forever. 65,000 miles on it right now. The 2V 4.6 V8 was one of the most reliable engines *ever* made, with several service vehicles in the same configuration putting over a million miles on the original engine (taxis, police cars, etc).

I also want to get an early 70's F-100 with a 300ci 6-cylinder engine. Something simple and reliable, that I already know how to work on. I'm still two decades out from retirement, but already own my retirement home and everything I will need is within 5 miles (but most within walking distance) of the house. So like you, I'm not planning on putting a lot of miles on my cars once I decide that I'm through.

... TL;DR - buy used, but pay attention to new products as they are released, so you can have an idea of what is/isn't going to be reliable 5-10 years from now.

[OneByteCPU]

The machine you buy today has been in the supply chain queue for weeks, if not months. Add to that the fact the big companies like Lenovo have to meet certain criteria about version control to keep their ISO ratings so they can't just change their release images without getting them certified and quite possibly given the official "Okey-Dokey" from their biggest clients (military, government, fortune 500), now layer on the rate at which Microsoft and chip manufacturers bring out updated code and you have the situation you find yourself in. This is the expected situation.

[pkiff]

The machine you buy today has been in the supply chain queue for weeks, if not months. Add to that the fact the big companies like Lenovo have to meet certain criteria about version control to keep their ISO ratings so they can't just change their release images without getting them certified [...] This is the expected situation.

I do follow the logic of this explanation and I guess you are right, but to me it still seems like a failure of the industry to prioritize users and user experiences over efficiency. I assume that the margins are just so tight on lots of these products that they can't afford to do otherwise. But ThinkPads are premium products that you expect to pay more for in part because you expect somewhat better quality and service. Besides, if they can cut consumer prices in half during Boxing Day or Black Friday sales, then it makes me wonder just exactly how tight those margins really are.

I ordered my X1 Extreme Gen 4 in August, but it wasn't actually manufactured until late October/early November according to some of its stickers. And it wasn't actually boxed up and shipped until maybe just one or two weeks before I received it in November. Yet they still used a factory image that was an entire major Windows edition behind, and I still had to do firmware updates. From a consumer experience standpoint, end users shouldn't have to do those things when they pay several thousands of dollars for a new, premium machine.

I guess there just isn't much money in the general consumer market, so they don't have to care or change - Lenovo must make most of its money in mass corporate sales. But on the question of disk images, are big corporation/military/government clients using disk images that ship with the units? - Wouldn't that be a security risk and also poor fleet management? I assume that they are writing their own disk images onto new machines with required software already installed and configured. Or they're using some form of policy control that does much the same thing starting with any clean Windows installation.

Two other things happened to me in the past month that show Lenovo's disdain for standard consumer service.

First, an order I made for an X1 Carbon Tablet Gen 3 case was cancelled after a week by Lenovo with no explanation or apology: the way they cancelled my order was by sending me an automated update to my order that said "this order has been cancelled". That was the full extent of their communication about it. I mean WTF? You could at least say it was cancelled because we discontinued the product or we ran out or we don't like you or whatever. At a minimum, I would expect such an email from a business to begin by saying "we are sorry" - which they never said anywhere in the message. I can only assume it didn't say they were sorry because they aren't sorry. They just sent the same email to me as they would to a faceless mega corporate client who doesn't care.

Second, I received an email from Lenovo this past week quoting from another customer of theirs who had a question:

Thank you for shopping with us. Another customer has posted the following question about ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 (16” Intel) Laptop. Would you be able to help out with an answer?
Does ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 support thunderbolt and has G-sync?

So hold on one d*mn minute. Lenovo can't answer a basic question about their own X1 Extreme Gen 4 machine that has only been widely available for a month? And they randomly send emails to their CUSTOMERS begging us to help them answer basic support questions? I mean, what kind of customer service is Lenovo running? People paid thousands of dollars for these supposedly top-of-the-line Thinkpads, and they can't answer their own customer support line?

I'm picking on Lenovo because that's who I buy almost all my laptops from. But the lack of user-focused service for products that are so expensive feels like an industry failure to me.

[RealBlackStuff]

One of the reasons why they are 'better' known nowadays as LeNoNo.

[OneByteCPU]

I'm picking on Lenovo because that's who I buy almost all my laptops from. But the lack of user-focused service for products that are so expensive feels like an industry failure to me.

At my shop we sell Lenovos because we can speak honestly about them and make them sound desirable. That's generally something we have to "work on" for other manufacturers machines. I do get your point though. We offer every customer a setup service where we do the base OS set-up (without an MS account), apply all the updates to the OS, drivers and firmware, run some optimizations for better performance, clean off any bloatware (Lenovo has the least of this, BTW) and then install Adobe Reader and their bowser of choice. For this service we charge $80 and 95% of our customers buy it - so you are bang on. The new computer experience is not what it should be.

BTW, just a random point here that detracts further from the user experience .. with Windows 11 Home you cannot set up your machine without a MS account and bitlocker is turned on by default, so you better not forget your MS account password. More experienced users should tell others, as much as we can, to avoid the Home edition.

[axur-delmeria]

with Windows 11 Home you cannot set up your machine without a MS account and bitlocker is turned on by default, so you better not forget your MS account password..

OMG it's starting to sound like Windows is ransomware.

It's like that scene from Terminator 3:

"The virus has infected Skynet Windows."
"SkynetWindows IS the virus!!"