EU seems to be in danger...

[mortimer]

Its funny how wujsteffan declared Poland to be a desirable country earlier in this thread.
That country has declared "LGBT Free zones."

[ajkula66]

Consider that the US declared the largely Islamic kurdish people a key ally in fighting ISIS.

And that seems to be working really well for the Kurds right now....

Let's not forget that U.S. was supporting Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting Soviets. Another one that worked really well in the long run.

And Saddam Hussein while he was fighting against Iran....

Let's not try to measure the dangers of political movements and religious sects by official stances of the US government, since the latter have a tendency of changing as the wind blows...

[mortimer]

Consider that the US declared the largely Islamic kurdish people a key ally in fighting ISIS.

And that seems to be working really well for the Kurds right now....

Let's not forget that U.S. was supporting Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting Soviets. Another one that worked really well in the long run.

And Saddam Hussein while he was fighting against Iran....

Let's not try to measure the dangers of political movements and religious sects by official stances of the US government, since the latter have a tendency of changing as the wind blows...

The key detail here is that a culture shaped by Islam has been working against all odds to great an egalitarian society free from terrorism.
In fact, a significant portion of refugees that are being complained about in this thread come from this very region.
It is obvious that Islam is not the problem here.

[ajkula66]

The key detail here is that a culture shaped by Islam has been working against all odds to great an egalitarian society free from terrorism.

Please tell me that you're joking. Pretty please. Otherwise I'll just consider you a troll.

In fact, a significant portion of refugees that are being complained about in this thread come from this very region.
It is obvious that Islam is not the problem here.

Islam is not a problem as long as a secular state is maintained. Some examples would include:

Turkey from the days of general Ataturk until a few years ago.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

Syria under El-Assads.

Unfortunately, that type of government seems to be an exception more than the rule nowadays.

I just find it rather peculiar that you're trashing Poland over their "LGBT free zones" while turning a blind eye on how homosexuality is treated in the Islamic world.

[mortimer]

The key detail here is that a culture shaped by Islam has been working against all odds to great an egalitarian society free from terrorism.

Please tell me that you're joking. Pretty please. Otherwise I'll just consider you a troll.

In fact, a significant portion of refugees that are being complained about in this thread come from this very region.
It is obvious that Islam is not the problem here.

Islam is not a problem as long as a secular state is maintained. Some examples would include:

Turkey from the days of general Ataturk until a few years ago.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

Syria under El-Assads.

Unfortunately, that type of government seems to be an exception more than the rule nowadays.

I just find it rather peculiar that you're trashing Poland over their "LGBT free zones" while turning a blind eye on how homosexuality is treated in the Islamic world.

Im not joking, and as to the kurdish region of iraq, the YPG has organized a whole force of queer people fighting alongside them.
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/10/is- ... lienation/

Funny how one of those great secular islamic states you mentioned is attempting to commit genocide of the kurdish people (Turkey, to be clear).
Once again, you cannot cut a clear line around the Islamic community. Religion is not the common theme here.
In the US we even have a strong Muslim presence in pride parades. The people here of the Islamic faith are far more friendly to the Queer community than say the status quo in Russia.

[ajkula66]

Funny how one of those great secular islamic states you mentioned is attempting to commit genocide of the kurdish people (Turkey, to be clear).

So in your trolling you deliberately missed the part where I wrote "until a few years ago" when it comes to Turkey.

Once again, you cannot cut a clear line around the Islamic community. Religion is not the common theme here.
In the US we even have a strong Muslim presence in pride parades. The people here of the Islamic faith are far more friendly to the Queer community than say the status quo in Russia.

I'm done responding to your posts unless you choose to offend me personally.

[mortimer]

Funny how one of those great secular islamic states you mentioned is attempting to commit genocide of the kurdish people (Turkey, to be clear).

So in your trolling you deliberately missed the part where I wrote "until a few years ago" when it comes to Turkey.

Once again, you cannot cut a clear line around the Islamic community. Religion is not the common theme here.
In the US we even have a strong Muslim presence in pride parades. The people here of the Islamic faith are far more friendly to the Queer community than say the status quo in Russia.

I'm done responding to your posts unless you choose to offend me personally.

Thats your choice. Call me a troll all you want but Russia encourages bloody murders of queer people for sport: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out ... e-n1032841 . Obviously in the violent terrorist caliphate queer people are treated very similarly. Same in Uganda. Seems like the common theme is not Islam, unless you think Russia and Uganda are islamic as well
At this point you are refusing to believe reality. I can lead you to water but I cannot make you drink.
https://teachthought.com/learning/assim ... knowledge/

[mpcook]

Hmmm. Turkey was a good friend of nazi Germany during WWII. Not a sign of an acceptable secular Islamic country.

[ajkula66]

Hmmm. Turkey was a good friend of nazi Germany during WWII. Not a sign of an acceptable secular Islamic country.

Acceptable enough to join the NATO just a few short years later...

[mpcook]

Hmmm. Turkey was a good friend of nazi Germany during WWII. Not a sign of an acceptable secular Islamic country.

Acceptable enough to join the NATO just a few short years later...

Becoming a NATO member does not make this an acceptable society. For example, at the end of March 2005 the attention of Western media was drawn towards Turkey to the fact that Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf was running at 4th place on the Turkish best-seller lists for the first two months of 2005. Its low price (USD4.5) made it affordable, from 50 to 100 thousand copies of the book were sold. The Turkish authorities withdrew the book from sales shortly after. On that occasion, Turkish sociologist and political scientist Doğu Ergil stated that "Nazism, buried in Europe, is being resurrected in Turkey." Возрождение нацизма в Турции – Майн Кампф четвертый в списке бестселлеров. REGNUM. 18 March 2005. Retrieved 28 May 2010. Then also, purging the ethnic Kurdish population is yet another indicator of a sick political system. If the US had any gumption left, it would stand up to the Turks, and support the Kurds.

[ajkula66]

Acceptable enough to join the NATO just a few short years later...

Becoming a NATO member does not make this an acceptable society.

Oh I agree with you but I'm sure that you're getting my point.

Then also, purging the ethnic Kurdish population is yet another indicator of a sick political system. If the US had any gumption left, it would stand up to the Turks, and support the
Kurds

Gumption doesn't bode well in global politics IME.

[Puppy]

New migrants put Germany's established crime gangs under pressure
https://www.dw.com/en/new-migrants-put- ... a-51408164

[ajkula66]

And here we go again...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/liv ... olice-city

[ajkula66]

And again...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 26941.html

[Puppy]

And again...

Multicultural Christmas. But we have to accept it. And of course, there is absolutely no connection to anything. Dozen of NGOs are already working on how to explain it to us to believe it is our fault.

[Puppy]

https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/articl ... ilieu.html

After breaking into the Green Vault in Dresden, new traces lead into the clan milieu of the capital. The Berliner Morgenpost learned this from police circles. There were several indications from Berlin that are now being examined. Investigators now also assume that the burglary a certain special tool was used.

Note that the article has "omitted" the clan is arabic, as in the last case. What a surprise. Germany, (do) you need more people like them (?).

[Puppy]

Paris stabbing: Man ‘knifes three’ in Villejuif attack - area in lockdown
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/12 ... -des-hauts

[Puppy]

Drug gang violence in Sweden linked to 60% increase in bomb blasts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-increase

Last year 257 bomb attacks were reported to police, up from 162 in 2018

And they have to accept it.

[BillMorrow]

my opinion of islam is that it is a cult, a misogynistic, bigoted, racist, hateful POLITICAL ideology MASQUERADING as a RELIGION which has been at WAR since its founding by a lying criminal pedophile in the 7th century.. ISLAM has invaded most everywhere, it was finally thrown out of spain 500+ years after its invasion and stopped at the gates of vienna.. islam is now invading europe, the UK, the americas and elsewhere by infiltrating and taking over once their birthrate out numbers the native population..
the DEMOCRAT socialist progressive PARTY here in the USA loves islam, they both hunger for the same thing.. POWER, the power to control..
puppy (i hope you are well ), i'm surprised you seem to be against islam..

research islam here:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Ibthink]

Is this now a political hate forum, where hate, generalizations & conspiracy theories against a world religion with 1.8 billion people are officially endorsed by the owner?

research islam here:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

What a great source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-religion-of-peace/

"Overall, we rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda, lack of transparency and anti-Islam tendencies."

[dr_st]

Bill's personal opinion aside... just because something is "Anti-Islam" doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, "The Religion of Peace" has an agenda, a very obvious one, and they don't attempt to hide it. Yes, they bring up and discuss things that, in line with their agenda, will show the bad effects of Islam, and not much else - in the same way that an organization that has an anti-drug agenda will be focusing on the negative effects of drugs, and not, for example, the negative effects of coal power plants. This does not mean that Islam, or drugs, or coal power plants are the only bad things in the universe, or even the most significant ones.

Everyone has an agenda. There is no "objective reporting" anywhere (often, even "objective truth" is hard to define). One should not expect any single source to be objective; they should read and research as many sources as they can and try to form a coherent picture of the world by putting them all together and against each other.

In that context, labeling something as "extreme right-wing" or "propaganda" is a technique that pseudo liberals often use to attempt to discredit views that they are uncomfortable with. If you think someone presents a "fact" which is false, say that it's false and prove it. If you disagree with a point of view, explain why. Sadly I see in many people who consider themselves "liberals" less and less willingness to actually participate in debates and more willingness to just silence opinions they disagree with.

In that context, I actually want to give kudos to MediaBias/FactCheck, because on their review of TROP they link to TROP's response to that review, and within that you can see a screenshot that shows that MediaBias had a much more negative review of TROP, which it later amended/softened. So they score points with me both on giving voice to the "opposition" and being open to revising their assessments. And one can read both the review and TROP's rebuttal, and form their opinion on the subject matter.

[mpcook]

Bill's personal opinion aside... just because something is "Anti-Islam" doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, "The Religion of Peace" has an agenda, a very obvious one, and they don't attempt to hide it. Yes, they bring up and discuss things that, in line with their agenda, will show the bad effects of Islam, and not much else - in the same way that an organization that has an anti-drug agenda will be focusing on the negative effects of drugs, and not, for example, the negative effects of coal power plants. This does not mean that Islam, or drugs, or coal power plants are the only bad things in the universe, or even the most significant ones...

Yes, even coal power plants have benefits to society. And you are correct in pointing out the dangers of generalization (stereotyping). No major religion, Judaism, Christiantity, Islam, Buddhism nor Hinduism, is monolithic. There are good and bad, extreme and not so much, those who believe some of the writings but not all, and very many who pick and choose what they want to subscribe to. In fact, the same goes for liberals and conservatives. There are some of each who want to shut up or shut down the "other side", or limit free speech.

[Ibthink]

Yes, "The Religion of Peace" has an agenda, a very obvious one, and they don't attempt to hide it.

They don't attempt to hide it? Then why does no one know who is responsible for this site? There is zero transparency when it comes to this. The person who created this site is hiding - probably because if you knew who it came from (which is most likely some KKK or Nazi type if I had to guess), it would be more easy to identify it as the trash that it is.

Everyone has an agenda. There is no "objective reporting" anywhere (often, even "objective truth" is hard to define). One should not expect any single source to be objective; they should read and research as many sources as they can and try to form a coherent picture of the world by putting them all together and against each other.

While it is correct that people should compare and contrast different news sources, it is pretty obvious that there are some news sources that are much worse than others.

And no, not everyone has a conscious agenda. Everyone has a bias, but that is something different from an agenda. The difference between biased reporting and propaganda is that biased reporting may be skewed by omission of certain things the author may not be interested in or may overlook, propaganda is purposefully false. The author of propaganda knows that what he writes is not in any way, shape or form honest.

Or do you seriously want to say that there is no difference between state media in the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany and todays modern mainstream media?

In that context, labeling something as "extreme right-wing" or "propaganda" is a technique that pseudo liberals often use to attempt to discredit views that they are uncomfortable with

It is also a well known technique of extremists to tell people that all mainstream media sources are untrustworthy and wrong, in order to radicalize people and erode trust in liberal democracy. The Kremelin uses this technique with its state-owned media organizations like RT as well. The reason it works so well is that by telling people that all other sources are untrustworthy, you as the messenger of this "truth" immediately gain a lot of trust.

The same goes for the concept of truth itself. If you don't believe that there is any truth, believing obvious lies becomes so much easier, which effectively creates a sort of alternate reality.

If you disagree with a point of view, explain why. Sadly I see in many people who consider themselves "liberals" less and less willingness to actually participate in debates and more willingness to just silence opinions they disagree with.

That is probably because people start to realize that discussing with actual extremists is fruitless, because such discussions are almost always filled with bad faith arguments & questions and thus purposefully derailed. People don't like to waste their time, which I think is pretty understandable.

[dr_st]

They don't attempt to hide it? Then why does no one know who is responsible for this site? There is zero transparency when it comes to this.

They don't attempt to hide this in the sense that they are very open about their extremely negative opinion on Islam, and they announce right off the bat that the goal of the website is to explain to readers why they think Islam is terrible and to convince them of this point of view.

Hiding the agenda is not the same thing as hiding the source. Why they hide it? Well, given the track record of Islamists in issuing death threats, and sometimes successfully acting on such threats, against people who have said far milder things about Islam than you can read on TROP, if I had been behind that website, I would also want to hide my identity. I find this a more likely explanation than your suggestion that it's some KKK loon. KKK loons are typically very proud of themselves and see no reason to hide.

While it is correct that people should compare and contrast different news sources, it is pretty obvious that there are some news sources that are much worse than others.

True, but TROP is not a news source, nor does it claim to be such, even if it does link to news items (from actual news sources). It merely cherry picks items which appear to support their standpoint on Islam.

And no, not everyone has a conscious agenda. Everyone has a bias, but that is something different from an agenda.

You are correct. With that said, individual reporters more often have biases than agendas, but the outlets themselves typically have a very conscious agenda which drives them in selecting which individuals will be working there and what the "party line" will be.

The difference between biased reporting and propaganda is that biased reporting may be skewed by omission of certain things the author may not be interested in or may overlook, propaganda is purposefully false. The author of propaganda knows that what he writes is not in any way, shape or form honest.

I disagree. Propaganda is not necessarily false. In fact it's usually not false (otherwise you'd just call it "lies" or the most common nowadays "fake news"). The difference between propaganda and "mere" biased reporting is often very blurred. But, yes, TROP is a propaganda website in the sense that it has a very specific agenda and it only focuses on that and shows you things that support it. Again, I have no problem with that as long as they are open about it (and they are).

Or do you seriously want to say that there is no difference between state media in the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany and todays modern mainstream media?

No, not at all (assuming you are talking about "western" media). In some countries which we do not necessarily want to name (and yes, some of them are Islamic), things may be just as bad. Or would be as bad if not for the globalization and the internet which makes it rather impossible to completely close everyone off (except maybe in North Korea).

It is also a well known technique of extremists to tell people that all mainstream media sources are untrustworthy and wrong, in order to radicalize people and erode trust in liberal democracy.

Yes, and in the comment sections of the local news outlets here where I live I see such extremists often (both radical left and radical right, by the way).

Although it appears you are talking about deliberate systematic application of this technique by actual news sources (i.e., attempting to discredit other news sources). This is something that at least I have not witnessed in Israel, as they mostly all agree on the basic facts ; their corresponding biases show, as in the examples you gave, in what to report and what to overlook, what spin to put on it, and what opinions are held by the regular columnists.

The same goes for the concept of truth itself. If you don't believe that there is any truth, believing obvious lies becomes so much easier, which effectively creates a sort of alternate reality.

I do believe that there exists a truth, but it is often many-faceted, because often the same facts can be viewed in different lights, explained from different points of view, and experienced differently even by the direct parties to the occurrences; in such cases, the level of consensus you can expect from people which are far removed (in space or in time) from the events, is much lower.

Also, often, after a long debate (with mostly rational people), even if you can all end up agreeing on the basic facts, the weight each person puts on this or that aspect can vary greatly (depending on their general core values or opinions), and at most you can "agree to disagree" and end the argument. However, most of the time people (yours truly included) still present the combination of "raw facts" + their personal "core values" as factual, without differentiating between. So this also gives the perception of multiple truths.

That is probably because people start to realize that discussing with actual extremists is fruitless, because such discussions are almost always filled with bad faith arguments & questions and thus purposefully derailed. People don't like to waste their time, which I think is pretty understandable.

This is true, but you may be surprised (well, probably not really) how often arguments and intelligent debates are useless even with people who are not actual extremists.

[Puppy]

I thought this thread had been closed

Or do you seriously want to say that there is no difference between state media in the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany and todays modern mainstream media?

I can comment the comparison of the Soviet Union (Eastern Bloc in general) and current mainstream media and I can clearly see it is getting closer and closer. Many of these so called "fake news" are just a different opinions labeled such, basically everything that goes against the official EU (mostly German - Merkel) propaganda.

There is no way back, it has gone too far. The western European society has to go through the same experience we (the former Eastern Bloc) already did to finally realize it. And it will be very painful process. As always, the experience is non-transferable. But please keep your toxic lies for yourself and do not ever try to indoctrinate others what they are allowed to think. We had been already there, seriously.

The 'extremely negative opinion on Islam' is pretty relevant similar to an 'extremely negative opinion on Communism'. You can find isolated good things in both ideologies (Islam is more ideology than a religion), but in general both are terrible and focused on attacking other cultures/systems. They aren't able to build anything, just to destroy and make people's life miserable. This is the most common aspect of both.

There are no reliable news sources anymore - everyone have reasons to either lie or hide uncomfortably facts. The only source is ... you. If you want to know something about a situation in a particular region or society, you have to go there and discover it yourself. It is actually very sad result as we have invented great communication technologies, but we can not use them anymore.

The Kremelin uses this technique with its state-owned media organizations like RT as well. The reason it works so well is that by telling people that all other sources are untrustworthy, you as the messenger of this "truth" immediately gain a lot of trust.

Does it sound familiar, doesn't it? You call them a "fake news", remember? And you pay dozens of such "RTs" in form of NGOs who are watching if you behave. But I understand you can't see it now.

[Puppy]

Or would be as bad if not for the globalization and the internet which makes it rather impossible to completely close everyone off (except maybe in North Korea).

Not really. The Internet is still free (to some extent), but not the common platforms people use to communicate. The debate we are having in this thread wouldn't be possible on any social media platform like Facebook because some posts would get reported as inapropriate and our accounts would be either banned for 30 days or closed forever. And there is no way to dispute. It is basically the same approach China use in their social status rating system. But we still have the choice to opt out.

[friedrich-eugen]

Well Puppy,

I strongly disagree with Your arguments and views:

May be - as I am a post 1945-German - I see quite a lot of differences over time and

• I do not share Your view, that Europe is throttling free speach and the free expression of opinions.

• Even less so I see Germany throttling european social and ecomic devellopment,

• last not least I do see a ressurgance of old - nurtured by lack of education & formation - prejudices, nationalism and antisemitism.

Europe has a history of all that, reaching beyond the midlle ages, and that history has to do with the pursuit of power & wealth by those propagating those prejudices,
and
Europe has a record of the price it had to pay in terms of human lives, wars, and poverty, of loss of knowledge and chances of devellopment!

To stay short in my answer. Economics pure just tell us, that sharing advantages does add to the welfare of all participating. That was and
is true, and the truth may well be read from history. That historical lesson does reach out to other parts of our small world.

The Brexit will damage Great Britain, will damage Ireland, will damage the EU. Worst effected will be Great Britain, which already is leaping
behind economically and socially. I will loose even more of 2nd sector production and not win on services or 1st sector production as commerce
will be hampereed...

Short sighted tactics and pure political stupidity joined forces with strong prejudices projected by some dominant media.

No favorable experience, extremely sad, extremly depressing

[Puppy]

• I do not share Your view, that Europe is throttling free speach and the free expression of opinions.

• Even less so I see Germany throttling european social and ecomic devellopment,

• last not least I do see a ressurgance of old - nurtured by lack of education & formation - prejudices, nationalism and antisemitism.

EU is throttling the free speech very extensively in the name of so called "fake news", because their politics regarding (mostly fake) immigrants went out of control. There are many documents and imposed regulations for social media providers like Facebook applied. They have to remove all the "fake news" or "inappropriate content" immediately. That's why they will remove and ban the original poster, using poor AI technology or reports made by NGO servants, any content that doesn't conform to the only official opinion. In the old era we had a joke: "The constitution guarantees freedom of speech, but not the freedom after the speech". And it is valid, unfortunately.

Germany is trying to force other EU countries to follow their bad decision about accepting so called immigrants. Fortunately our country has a poor economy compared to Germany or Sweden; if we were forced to accept them, they would do the best to escape to Germany again. We already experienced it. We had accepted two Syrian families, they were given a social support and free appartments of better standards than most of people can afford over here. The first their comment was they haven't come to live in a "cowsheed". The NGO involved in this case was trying to deny the translation, but the video footage was already posted on Internet so everyone could watch it. Later they had made two attempts to illegaly escape to Germany, both supported by the NGO. German police found them and returned back. After those two unsuccessful attempts they suddenly stated they no longer see a danger in their home country and returned back home. Draw your conclusion (and btw, it is a fake news, of course )

The Brexit will damage Great Britain, will damage Ireland, will damage the EU.

Do not underestimate them. They have voted for it two times. It may damage the EU, but not the UK. It will be a good example for others to follow, that's why EU is getting so nervous about it.

EDIT German shooting: Six dead in Rot am See attack
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51235116

[Ibthink]

EDIT German shooting: Six dead in Rot am See attack
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51235116

Trying to instrumentalize a family drama to spread hate? How low can you sink...

Europe has a history of all that, reaching beyond the midlle ages, and that history has to do with the pursuit of power & wealth by those propagating those prejudices,
and
Europe has a record of the price it had to pay in terms of human lives, wars, and poverty, of loss of knowledge and chances of devellopment!

You are completely right. One would think that people in Europe would have learned the lesson of two world wars that hate, racism and fascism are a route that leads straight to barbarism. I guess some people never learn. Once, they used the Jews to create the "us vs them" mentality, now its the Muslims. And just like back then, democracy is threatened by these authoritarians. Just look at Hungary. Rigged justice & voting system, splintered opposition, media almost completely controlled by the government, economic stagnation compared to other countries, workers rights get taken away...but no refugees, so everything is A-OK...some people are willing to do a lot as long as it means not having to see brown people on the streets.

[Puppy]

Trying to instrumentalize a family drama to spread hate? How low can you sink...

If you can read any form of hate in the post I recommend to search for a medical help

One would think that people in Europe would have learned the lesson of two world wars that hate, racism and fascism

... and propaganda.

Just look at Hungary. Rigged justice & voting system, splintered opposition, media almost completely controlled by the government, economic stagnation compared to other countries, workers rights get taken away.

Have you been there or got all the information from the fake news only?

Visegrad Group: A new economic heart of Europe?
With 3.7% growth in 2019, Hungary ranks as the fifth-fastest-growing economy in the EU, according to the European Commission forecasts.

as long as it means not having to see brown people on the streets.

No one cares about that. It is about any people who have clearly declared they hate our (western) system and culture and will not accept local rules and laws. There are many examples of it and you will never resolve it if you won't talk about it and start to enforce law. I can start with one awful topic, the child marriage.