Couldn't go to a better person!

[dr_st]

You say this without anything to base your argument on. Just saying "it is not relevant" is your opinion, not an argument.

Same to you, buddy. You see certain things in these quotes, I see others. Fairness of elections is the cornerstone of democracy. Expressing concern over the possibility of election rigging before the fact is not the same thing as refusing to accept defeat after the fact, and one does not lead to the other, except in the minds of those who wish to fabricate this world view. It doesn't matter, by the way, if he truly believes that substantial voter fraud can skew the results, or just uses this as a motivation to get his supporters to get out and vote for him.

In the end, if it's close enough, and there is concern of "irregularities", it may be investigated, should be investigated, and may end up in the US Supreme Court. Haven't we been there before when Al Gore demanded a Florida recount?

There are plenty of countries that have been transformed from democracies to dictatorships "peacefully". Nothing suggests that America is immune to this and it is the first time that it is a real possibility - the USA are deeply split like they have never been since the civil war.

I agree with the general statement. But I feel you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Perhaps you are ought to stop spreading half-truths which are worse than lies (because downright lies are easier to shoot down). I know it's real easy to start this and very hard to stop, but do try.

Leave that task to our man in Israel!

Nope, I don't deal in that. I know plenty that do, in Israel and out of it, but you won't catch me doing this, not willingly at least.

By the way, didn't you say, just a few hours ago:

Only weak people point out where people come from in order to invallidate their comments.

Attack the comment not the person.

I wonder why suddenly my location seems important to you.

I dont fear the spread of misinformation because only the weak minded will accept it. I dont care if other people are swayed by it, that isnt my problem.

Then you truly have nothing to fear. I wish you the best.

[TonyJZX]

In the end, if it's close enough, and there is concern of "irregularities", it may be investigated, should be investigated, and may end up in the US Supreme Court. Haven't we been there before when Al Gore demanded a Florida recount?

stack the court.

attack the postal vote.

attack the usps.

install fake ballot boxes.

install 'election monitors'

I wonder why suddenly my location seems important to you.

rules for thee but not for me.

you guys should be well versed on that If you elicit your information willingly then you should have nothing to fear. I dont go on rant about how people are hiding their location though... big difference but if I can see it then its fair game. I said before I'm a citizen of Australia and New Zealand. Attack me for all you want...

Then you truly have nothing to fear. I wish you the best.

I said before I have nothing to fear. My country isnt undergoing brexit or the kind of fake democracy going on elsewhere.

Our govt is corrupt like many but not to the degree others are.

To me its an armchair sport. I can sit back and watch because I'm a man of resources who can ride out recessions... I mean we're in one now with massive unemployment and rampant negative growth.

I'm just not able to blame the Soros of the world like others are here.

We'll see which way the worm turns and either way it'll be hilarious and hopefully not violent but hey, Im against this unlike others.

I personally wouldnt defend a 3 time adulterer and someone who has to pay $130k for someone to have sex with him but hey... you guys do you.

[cadillacmike68]

I really wonder why Americans make such a big hullabaloo about their army and all those veterans.
The majority is, or has been, fighting in countries abroad that are none of their business!
Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, to mention but a few...
And a lot of people only go into the army because of low living standards and their lack of proper education, not because they are patriotic!

It's because we saved the world TWICE (really three times with Korea). Yeah, we have made plenty of blunders since then and I have been vocal about in other arenas, but many of you would be speaking a different language if we didn't put everything we had, including over 500,000 lives in.

Yeah some join for less than honorable reasons, but you don't rise to Colonel being dishonorable or stupid. Well, there are a few who did, but not many.

On the other hand those bozos who plotted the MI kidnapping were NOT career service personnel, and many were never in the service.

I dont think I've said anything controversial there. If I have point it out.

Only weak people point out where people come from in order to invallidate their comments.

Attack the comment not the person.

But hey thank your for your service.

btw. let me point out something wacky. If you joined this form back in 2006 you didnt have to put in your location. The admins here state that you are obliged to put it in but you dont have to.

OK, I'm off. Car show Friday with perfect top down weather.

So like Captain America says "I dont think I will".

Its amazing to me so many people get so up in arms about a persons location. I wonder if its fear of the 'other'. So many people care about that I wonder why? why? I kind of know why now.

Amazing how supposed military men dont seem to want a non violent transfer of power??? WHat did you fight for? Freedom? Apparently not.

I did not try to invalidate any of your comments. I even stated that you have the right to make them, but since you don't live here nor are you a citizen here, I have the right to comment on them and point out those facts so others can take them in the manner that they desire. And don't forget the spring / summer of 1942 when the US Navy saved where you live from japanese invasion when most of the Aus and NZ military was in the North African desert, and your naval resources were all but destroyed in the Java sea battles earlier.


You on the other hand are attempting to denigrate me and other US service personnel with your remarks.

[mpcook]

Here are just a few quotes that contribute to the concern about "peaceful transfer of power" after Nov 3 in the US. No previous presdient has ever questioned the concept. BTW, someone in a prior post quoted Hillary Clinton. I understand she is not running for office this year.
----------------------------------------------
The president’s remarks Friday took comments he made on a transition of power at a Thursday press conference a step further. “Win, lose, or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the election?” Trump was asked during a press conference by Brian Karem, the White House reporter for Playboy. “We’re gonna have to see what happens,” Trump said in response.

TRUMP: "I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election."
WALLACE: "Are you suggesting that you might not accept the results?"
TRUMP: "I have to see."
WALLACE: "Can you give a direct answer that you will accept the election?
TRUMP: "I have to see."

On Twitter, and in speeches, the president has highlighted memes about running for office every four years for the next several decades. He has also said he deserves extra time in office beyond the constitutionally allowed eight years due to the investigations he faced.

[cadillacmike68]

Here are just a few quotes that contribute to the concern about "peaceful transfer of power" after Nov 3 in the US. No previous presdient has ever questioned the concept. BTW, someone in a prior post quoted Hillary Clinton. I understand she is not running for office this year.
----------------------------------------------
The president’s remarks Friday took comments he made on a transition of power at a Thursday press conference a step further. “Win, lose, or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferral of power after the election?” Trump was asked during a press conference by Brian Karem, the White House reporter for Playboy. “We’re gonna have to see what happens,” Trump said in response.

TRUMP: "I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election."
WALLACE: "Are you suggesting that you might not accept the results?"
TRUMP: "I have to see."
WALLACE: "Can you give a direct answer that you will accept the election?
TRUMP: "I have to see."

On Twitter, and in speeches, the president has highlighted memes about running for office every four years for the next several decades. He has also said he deserves extra time in office beyond the constitutionally allowed eight years due to the investigations he faced.

No worse than biden's "no they (the voters) don't have a right to know" whether or not he will try to "pack" the supreme court. if fact biden is being very disingenuous there.

[teamde78]

No worse than biden's "no they (the voters) don't have a right to know" whether or not he will try to "pack" the supreme court. if fact biden is being very disingenuous there.

Agreed. Why can't he just answer the darn question?

[cadillacmike68]

No worse than biden's "no they (the voters) don't have a right to know" whether or not he will try to "pack" the supreme court. if fact biden is being very disingenuous there.

Agreed. Why can't he just answer the darn question?

It's because he "might have met with the ukranian" No Joke. You couldn't make up better stuff if you tried.

[TonyJZX]

You on the other hand are attempting to denigrate me and other US service personnel with your remarks.

Like your president?

Care to comment on that? Sen McCain... what a dead loser sucker... its obviously preferable NOT to be captured... shoulda had bone spurs.

Also would you like to comment the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed by American foreign policy/forces?

I doubt it.

[cadillacmike68]

You on the other hand are attempting to denigrate me and other US service personnel with your remarks.

Like your president?

Care to comment on that? Sen McCain... what a dead loser sucker... its obviously preferable NOT to be captured... shoulda had bone spurs.

Also would you like to comment the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed by American foreign policy/forces?

I doubt it.

Another untrue allegation that has already been debunked. Someone's head is in their 4th point of contact.

[RealBlackStuff]

Someone's head is in their 4th point of contact.

But that's the second-most kissed body part, extremely popular in government circles!

[rkawakami]

But that's the second-most kissed body part, extremely popular in government circles!

What's the first?

[pianowizard]

Another untrue allegation that has already been debunked. Someone's head is in their 4th point of contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541Cg2Jnb8s

I also never bothered to vote in any election. I thought it really didn't make any difference.

You were sort of correct. Due to the Electoral College system, only a fairly small number of voters (mostly in swing states) can make a difference. This is an unintended consequence of such a system, and the best justification for putting an end to it

[cadillacmike68]

Another untrue allegation that has already been debunked. Someone's head is in their 4th point of contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541Cg2Jnb8s

I also never bothered to vote in any election. I thought it really didn't make any difference.

You were sort of correct. Due to the Electoral College system, only a fairly small number of voters (mostly in swing states) can make a difference. This is an unintended consequence of such a system, and the best justification for putting an end to it

Hmmmmmm... I didn't hear loser or sucker in that clip. They didn't like each other. I was never a fan of McCain either. He rode his father's coattails all the way. Again someone's head is stuck in their 4th point of contact.

The electoral college. It's the only thing keeping the higher populated states from imposing their will on the less populated states. That was the original purpose and if californicated and new jerk hadn't gone off the deep end, then there wouldn't be an issue. FL is the 3rd most populated state and it remains a swing state, (much to my disdain). It's not going away.

Ray, this is a family show.

[cadillacmike68]

Still no denials from biden or his cronies on the NY Post revelations.

And now the FBI is interviewing the former biden associate.

There is NO DOUBT that's hunter's old laptop and the extended file attributes can prove it. Even if the hDD is copied, etc. the attributes stay with each file.

[ajkula66]

As an outsider looking in...whatever one may think of Electoral College the citizens of this country still get to vote *directly* for office holders, be it your school board officials or your Senator.

If one shows disdain for voting in local elections...they end up with the likes of Warren Wilhelm Jr. aka Bill De Blasio...and that's just the top of the pile.

Do you know your Sheriff ? The members of your school board(s) if you have children of related age? Did you vote for any of them in the last election ?

That's where you start.

The President - whoever he or she may end up being - is the least of your problems IF you elect all the right people all the way up the totem pole.

[rkawakami]

The electoral college. It's the only thing keeping the higher populated states from imposing their will on the less populated states. That was the original purpose and if californicated and new jerk hadn't gone off the deep end, then there wouldn't be an issue. FL is the 3rd most populated state and it remains a swing state, (much to my disdain). It's not going away.

So having the less populated states imposing their will onto the entire county is fine in your book? That's not the right answer either. In order to be fair to everyone, the presidential election needs to be decided the same way as all other public office elections - by popular vote. Unfortunately that's going to take a lot of work to accomplish (constitutional amendment). Yes, I can hear you saying now, "good luck" or "fat chance" or some variation of that. The current system is so broken for today's world. As to the "original purpose", the Electoral College was put in place when slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person when population was considered for House of Representatives members. I think that this has since been corrected.

And BTW, it's spelled "California" and "New York". Your continued use of name calling and slurs for places and people really makes you sound mature. Note: my last sentence was sarcastic in case you couldn't tell (since you can't hear me actually saying it).

[dr_st]

So having the less populated states imposing their will onto the entire county is fine in your book? That's not the right answer either. In order to be fair to everyone, the presidential election needs to be decided the same way as all other public office elections - by popular vote. Unfortunately that's going to take a lot of work to accomplish (constitutional amendment).

One can argue pretty much endlessly about which system is better. I don't think one system can be 100% fair. If the system is changed at some point, candidates will campaign differently, and voters will behave differently. This is all fine. The only rule, I think - is that you cannot change the rules mid-game.

Since I don't see any scenario in which Trump wins the popular vote, if he does end up winning due to the electoral college system, there will definitely be pressure from certain circles (just like there was 4 years ago) to make the change right now and "force" the electors to go against the current system and elect Biden. Contrary to how it may seem to some, that would be the most undemocratic thing that could be done.

[TonyJZX]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... e-election

anyone who gives these clowns the benefit of the doubt really are stupid

any doubt at all... there is no doubt.

Also Pence and his troupe have it but I wouldnt worry... he is the covid task force tsar after all!

[rkawakami]

"Faithless electors"? Yeah, it's happened before (2016, most recent) but not in large enough numbers to make a difference. The system, to put in the words of the president, IS rigged. It's mainly why I never bothered to vote before; the Electoral College dilutes, and occasionally, subverts the "will of the people". I decided to vote, even though in safely Democratic California, it didn't really make any difference. It was a STATEMENT vote. The down-ballot decisions were more important to me than the presidential one.

[TonyJZX]

the 'problem' seems to be that there's small parties that wield dispropotional power (eg. Kuntucky) and other places where there isnt enough... or ANY representation.

There is a problem where a state with say 3 mil. people have the same reprentation as say a state with 12 mi. people.

However many people love a broken system as it maintains their power.

[dr_st]

I decided to vote, even though in safely Democratic California, it didn't really make any difference. It was a STATEMENT vote. The down-ballot decisions were more important to me than the presidential one.

This is what I like best in the US system, BTW. That on election day(s), people get to vote directly not just on the identity of the president / local congressmen, but on a whole lot of important topics, such as other elected officials and even specific bills.

[cadillacmike68]

the 'problem' seems to be that there's small parties that wield dispropotional power (eg. Kuntucky) and other places where there isnt enough... or ANY representation.

There is a problem where a state with say 3 mil. people have the same reprentation as say a state with 12 mi. people.

However many people love a broken system as it maintains their power.

Go ahead and name a state with 3 mil and a state with 12 mil population . They WILL NOT have the same # of reps. If you actually lived here and knew the numbers, you wouldn't have just stepped in it.

BTW, Kuntucky is properly spelled Kentucky, and I wouldn't want to live there either.

The electoral college. It's the only thing keeping the higher populated states from imposing their will on the less populated states. That was the original purpose and if californicated and new jerk hadn't gone off the deep end, then there wouldn't be an issue. FL is the 3rd most populated state and it remains a swing state, (much to my disdain). It's not going away.

So having the less populated states imposing their will onto the entire county is fine in your book? That's not the right answer either. In order to be fair to everyone, the presidential election needs to be decided the same way as all other public office elections - by popular vote. Unfortunately that's going to take a lot of work to accomplish (constitutional amendment). Yes, I can hear you saying now, "good luck" or "fat chance" or some variation of that. The current system is so broken for today's world. As to the "original purpose", the Electoral College was put in place when slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person when population was considered for House of Representatives members. I think that this has since been corrected.

And BTW, it's spelled "California" and "New York". Your continued use of name calling and slurs for places and people really makes you sound mature. Note: my last sentence was sarcastic in case you couldn't tell (since you can't hear me actually saying it).

I know how they are spelled.

CA USED to be a great state, not anymore. It's governor is a cross between stalin, hitler, and mao, it has been mismanaged for decades, one particular rep has a $25,000 fridge with dozens of ice cream cartons which was shown off while millions are unemployed and she can't be bothered to help with what she refers to as "chump change" for the American people. People are leaving it by the tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands before its all over. My own sister left it recently. NY, and I lived there and worked in the city, is not much better. The taxes were outrageous even 25 years ago. The gov sentenced thousands of seniors in nursing homes to their death with his exec order, it's out there for all to see if they take their blinders off. And NYC's mayor is just furthering the destruction of ther city. NYC is about gone, not much will bring it back.

As to the electoral college, without it there would have been no approved constitution back in the 17890s. The lower population states RI, CT, DE which are STILL smaller that the large pop states did not want to be stomped on my the bigger states. So now we have a different mix of large pop and small pop states, but even today, one could win the presidency with only ELEVEN states. Conversely one could win 39 states and lose the election.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-tr ... e-election

anyone who gives these clowns the benefit of the doubt really are stupid

any doubt at all... there is no doubt.

Also Pence and his troupe have it but I wouldnt worry... he is the covid task force tsar after all!

Peaceful transfer... Let's see clinton's proxy, gore, lost and the clintons made off with the white house china. The secret service had to go fetch it back. Obama's own quoted "third term" proxy , clinton lost and they started the largest illegal attempted coup is US history. and now we have the former VP and his son mixed up with everyone, china, russia, ukraine.....

And the masses are just too ignorant or uneducated to know or even care.

Another untrue allegation that has already been debunked. Someone's head is in their 4th point of contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541Cg2Jnb8s

I also never bothered to vote in any election. I thought it really didn't make any difference.

You were sort of correct. Due to the Electoral College system, only a fairly small number of voters (mostly in swing states) can make a difference. This is an unintended consequence of such a system, and the best justification for putting an end to it

On the last statement. Not quite. 3 or 4 of those 11 Highest pop states I mentioned above are "swing states" so that's not a small amount of voters.

Our constitution isn't perfect, but it's the best around and has been for a couple hundred years.

I was away for a week - had to catch up.

[Ibthink]

The US electoral college is a relic from a time when voting rights were tied to land-ownership, gender and when the fastest means of transport was a horse. It isn't meant to "protect small states" - it was mainly put in place, because a.) it was more convenient back then when communication was slow and people could simply gather a few weeks after the election in DC to cast the deciding vote (because that is how long it took them to get there) and b.) because it allowed the quasi-aristocratic elite a safe-guard to overwrite an election they didn't like (see the 1822 election, which ended in congress picking the candidate who did not win most electoral college votes).

Fundamentally, it is undemocratic, because it was meant to be. Of course, getting rid of it is almost impossible, just like the British can not get rid of their crappy first-past-the-post voting system, as the parties in charge that profit from it won't get rid of it.

Go ahead and name a state with 3 mil and a state with 12 mil population . They WILL NOT have the same # of reps.

California: 39.5 million people, 55 electoral college votes

North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi: 24.9 million people, 55 electoral college votes

Contrary to how it may seem to some, that would be the most undemocratic thing that could be done.

For sure - it would be much more democratic if the Surpreme Court decides the election, which is what Trump wants. Or if the states pick the president via congress.

[ajkula66]

The down-ballot decisions were more important to me than the presidential one.

That's the way it's supposed to be IMO.

One's local/state issues are far more important than who gets to be POTUS in the long run.

I've been observing the decline of NY - both city and state - over the past 20 years. None of that can be blamed on GWB, Obama or Trump.

[rkawakami]

On the other hand, yours truly is a retired US Army Colonel, and a combat vet who served under multiple presidents.

Okay, here's a purely hypothetical scenario... Let's assume that you are still an active duty Army Colonel. Come late November/early December it's announced that Trump has lost the election both by popular vote and the Electoral College. Something along the lines of 7-8 million votes (about three times than the 2.1% Hilary Clinton had won in 2016) but Biden has about the same number of College votes that Trump had in 2016; 304. Not a landslide by any means but a statistically significant amount that nobody could say was extremely "close". True to form, since he himself has stated so, Trump declares that the election was rigged and that there were millions of illegal votes (without providing any supporting evidence; in other words, it's just his word). He refuses to accept the result and calls upon the military to support him as Commander-in-Chief (which technically he still is until January 20th, 2021).

A simple yes or no answer is requested and no explanation of why is needed: Do you take up arms and defend him?

edit: By the way, thank you for your service to the country. I mean that honestly and without any hint of sarcasm. My older brother went into the Navy back in 1973 (I think) and retired as a CPO.

[RealBlackStuff]

For sure - it would be much more democratic if the Surpreme Court decides the election, which is what Trump wants. Or if the states pick the president via congress.

You really believe that the Supreme Court or Congress makes an honest election decision, if the majority of the judges/congress belongs to a particular political party?
No bloody way!
That's why Trump kept on adding GOP judges, so GOPs have a majority there! (I think they should be called GOBs...)
Talk about NOT being prejudiced!
Also, there should be more than just those two antiquated [a-/un-/non-]political parties the USA currently has, where ALL parties can have their fair share in a say!
I can't tell you how happy I am that I left the USA last year!

[mpcook]

For sure - it would be much more democratic if the Surpreme Court decides the election, which is what Trump wants. Or if the states pick the president via congress.

You really believe that the Supreme Court or Congress makes an honest election decision, if the majority of the judges/congress belongs to a particular political party?
No bloody way!

I am assuming Ibthink was being facetious.

[Ibthink]

I am assuming Ibthink was being facetious.

Indeed, it was meant to be ironic.

That's why Trump kept on adding GOP judges, so GOPs have a majority there! (I think they should be called GOBs...)
Talk about NOT being prejudiced!

Yes - there is a reason why the democrats loudly think about court packing and why such high court picks shouldn't be a partisan issue and require a supermajority to guarantee balanced, moderate court layouts.

Here in Germany, judges for the constitutional court have to be appointed by a supermajority (one half by the Bundestag, one half by the deputies of the states). And they only serve for a single, 12 year term, so there is no point in trying to pack it with partisan judges - they won't serve that long anyway.

Of course, having judges appointed for life means a minority interest party like the GOP in the USA can misuse it to rule against the will of the majority. For them, the court is just a political tool to invalidate the election results.

[dr_st]

For sure - it would be much more democratic if the Surpreme Court decides the election, which is what Trump wants. Or if the states pick the president via congress.

The courts should only get involved if there any allegations of cheating / unfair elections.

Of course, having judges appointed for life means a minority interest party like the GOP in the USA can misuse it to rule against the will of the majority.

You didn't have a problem when there was a majority of Democratic party nominated judges, did you?

[Ibthink]

The courts should only get involved if there any allegations of cheating / unfair elections.

Great. Since Trump already claims the election is rigged BEFORE the election is through, what you are saying is that it will be decided by the Surpreme Court and that it is 100 % justified.

Why vote in the first place? Just let the court declare Trump as king.

You didn't have a problem when there was a majority of Democratic party nominated judges, did you?

I think you should read my post again. What I prefer are judges that have the support from both parties (hence requiring a supermajority) and are NOT chosen based on their ideological loyalty.

There are way too many shenanigans around the US Surpreme Court. Unfortunately, as one political party is set on continuing them, the other political party can not leave them unanswered (which is where the court packing comes in). The best option would be to completely reform it and especially remove the "for life" aspect of the appointment. I think that would be better than court packing, because it would remove part of the incentive to politicize the court in the first place.