Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[Summilux]

Your point about the price is true. Thats the reason why there are more expensive business focused lines such as the X1 line for Lenovo or the HP Elitebook 1020/1040 lines. There are different Enterprise customers with different wants and needs. The bulk of the sales however is dependent on price, this is where the PC companies like Lenovo or HP make their big revenue, with machines like the ThinkPad L470 or T470
[...]

The problem with telling customers that square screens is better for productivity is thats it not generally true. There are use cases where wider screens are better. And adding to that, the low-res 4:3 screens with XGA resolution that were standard for years [...]

Coordination between PC manufacturers kept 16:10 12" and 14" panels in production for one more year, but in the end, the display manufacturers have the power in this struggle.

Ideapads or Thinkpad L, the point is to offer cheap business-oriented laptops. If Lenovo already does this, it's nice, therefore they should be more ambitious with their high-end offerings. Being more ambitious includes offering 3:2 screens and not cheapening the T series - since they already have the L series to play the crooks.

Lenovo and other computer makers could push for square or square-ish screens right now because it's already fashionable (a lot of people have a tablet, they're used to the format) and because there are good panels available. And by the way, good resolutions were already available ten years ago ; back then it wasn't that difficult to get an SXGA panel when buying a premium laptop. You just have to be aware of this option and select it, which is something people who buy low-cost laptops in a supermarket never do.

So it's again a matter of educating the customers. Explaining that it's possible to get a proper 4:3 or 3:2 panel with a good resolution, and with that, working on applications that put an emphasis on vertical space will become more comfortable. Couple that with the great classic keyboard, and productivity will be even better.

But doing this demands a manufacturer to have faith, to actually have to will to deliver a very optimised machine. There seems to be very few manufacturers like these, so it is little wonder that we all ended up with 16:9 screens. Once they let go of 4:3, then 16:10 was just a formality. I don't know of the actual discussions which occured behind the scene back then, but I'd wager they didn't put a proper fight against the display makers.

Plus, 16:9 has not replaced 4:3, it was 16:10, which is less compromised than 16:9. 16:9 then replaced 16:10 because it became clear that the majority customers didn´t mind the slightly wider screens.

That's how the events unfurled, yes. But you know that the big picture here is square vs wide, so 16:9 or 16:10, it's all the same, just variants of wide. (I know there are people who care about 16:10 disagree with what I just said, but that's my point of view anyway).

IBM tried to do the exact same thing and it failed - which led to the sale of the PC segment to Lenovo. So why should Lenovo have continued with a strategy that failed and only produced a loss for IBM? It doesn´t make sense.
[...]
The irony is that IBM could have continued on like this, keep loosing money and keep making ThinkPads as an expensive hobby, because they were not dependent on the PC, it was just one of their business-segments. But of course, IBM is a profit-oriented company and so they sold it off.

I feel you are dismissing the premium niche too quickly based on an incomplete view of IBM's issues :

1. We don't know the fine detail of the PC division's losses - specifically how Thinkpads fared compared to other products.
2. We don't know precisely what IBM's PC strategy was, and how well or badly it was implemented.
3. The consumer electronics context was different - there was not yet the opportunity to successfuly place laptops in a premium niche.

So one scenario could have been for IBM to sell all of its PC division except for the Thinkpads, whose premium appeal would have progressively increased as mainstream computers fell out of favour against the phones and tablets.

Back in 2004, just keeping Thinkpads would probably have been profitable. Even if they incurred losses, it would have been peanuts for IBM to keep it afloat. As this Thinkpad Business Unit would have approached the year 2014 and continually refined its premium niche in a market now flooded with tablets, margins could have improved.

The rationale for keeping this business unit would be :
- Having another revenue stream (but easy to jettison in case it became a burden).
- Having another foot in the companies' doors.
- Keeping brand equity high amongst the more general public (prosumers), because the same people can influence corporate sales as employees/managers.

Its not even like Lenovo didn´t try to do something in this direction, thats why the X300 exists. But this model was just another failure. Just like the very expensive W700-line.

They tried but their mistake was not to perseverate.

Looking back at 2008 reviews, the X300 was about 500€ more expensive than the X200s. Given it had an SSD and LED-backlit display, it wasn't absurd.
Had they continued the sales, with ever cheaper displays and SSDs, the X300's (and successors) affordability would have increased. In other words, there would still be a premium to pay over conventional X2** machines, but this premium would have decreased at iso-capabilities.

Instead of an X270, would I pay e.g. 350€ more for an X370 that has roughly the same hardware except for a classic keyboard and a decent 13" screen ? Yes I would. And I'd pay more for a square screen.

As for the W700, I can't comment because I'm not interested in this kind of laptops so I haven't followed their development and market context.

Regarding Smartphones, of course Google/Qualcomm are powerful, but this market is still very open compared to PCs. Anyone can do their own version of Android without the Google stuff (which is what some manufacturers do) and there are many other CPU manufacturers than Qualcomm. Samsung and Apple, the two biggest players in the Smartphone market, have their own CPUs. This keeps CPU prices down, Qualcomm can´t easily demand rip-off prices like Intel could in the PC market for a long time.

It's definitely more open, yes.

But devil is in the details for Android. Most consumers will want access to Google's applications, and for that phone makers have to pay the licence, even if in theory they don't have to absolutely do it in order to use Android.

On the hardware side, Samsung's Exynos keeps using ARM IP for the CPU and is completely reliant on ARM for the GPU. Apple still uses ARM IP for the CPU too, but apparently plans to ditch PowerVR for the GPU ; not sure if they'll replace it with something in-house or not. So here again the influence of ARM and others is still very visible.

I don´t like some of his videos because I find his style pretty obnoxious sometimes, but I do agree with many things he says in this video.

Yeah he's a bit full of himself, but his rants about TPs/Lenovos are enjoyable.

[ajkula66]

There is something to be said knowing that if your compiter just flat out dies, someone will come to fix if for free.

Fair enough.

There's also something to be said about the fact that a T430s motherboard is not exactly expensive nowadays, and the same holds true for the FHD panels used for the mod...a machine would have to be as unreliable as A31p or X61T (referring to the bubbling issue here) which is not the reputation that T430s - modded or not - appears to have for a newer model with factory warranty to be considered by silly old me.

Unless, of course, the newer model offers something that the modded oldtimer doesn't which is important for *me*, and Retro has zero advantages in my usage patterns when compared to a modded T430s.

I would've loved for Lenovo to come out with a product that would make me buy my first new ThinkPad since *20 series, but so far they've failed to do so and I seriously doubt that the future holds a different deck of cards in this respect.

[Puppy]

So here again the influence of ARM and others is still very visible.

There is Windows 10 on ARM around the corner. Moreover Microsoft is also moving server editions to ARM, which is not well known yet. They and other companies are trying to standardize ARM CPUs for such purpose. Basically it is time to ditch Intel.

[pianowizard]

If you would offer me the choice between two ThinkPads , one with a 12" 3:2 screen (and thus either huge display bezels or a smaller keyboard) and one with a 14" 16:9 screen (which can have very display small side bezels and still a full-size keyboard), I would go with the 14" 16:9 every time.

It depends on the resolution. If 12" 3:2 is 1920x1280 while 14" 16:9 is 1920x1080, I would opt for the 12" 1920x1280 every time, even if the two laptops weighed exactly the same.

No way. A decade ago I used to work on a Samsung Q30 aka Dell X1 and 12" is just not enough. (You people would get an aneurysm if you'd know it had a 5:3 display )

I happen to be very familiar with the Dell Latitude X1, with its 12.1" 1280x768 screen. The low resolution was its main problem. 12.0" 1920x1280 has a far better resolution, and its somewhat larger surface area and height also help a bit. My HP detachable's 12.0" 1920x1280 screen is such a joy to use.

[Summilux]

The T430s was a great machine, so what would be wrong with the Retro(as long the keyboard is good).

It would be wrong on several levels :
- Ethically : Lenovo has trashed our loyalty, why reward them for that with our money ?
- Financially : there will probably be a cost surplus for this "anniversary edition" ; how much is anyone's guess.
- Commercially : it further encourages the sale of under-optimised machines and of wide screens.

Now if we talked about Lenovo simply adding a classic keyboard option to its regular laptops, it'd be less wrong. I could even see myself getting one. Reluctantly, though.

With a bit of luck the "old" T420/x220 keyboard has been reused

No. Its a new keyboard.

It won't cost much to try swapping the keyboards, we might have a good surprise for once ?

[chx1975]

It won't cost much to try swapping the keyboards, we might have a good surprise for once ?

It has been stated multiple times it's a different palmrest and if you consider it carefully, it must be: a seven row keyboard out of necessity takes more space than a six row and also there's a different firmware which will be very difficult to hack. Do you remember how long it took for the T430 firmware to be hacked? It took until 2016 April that is four years to get there.

[Summilux]

It has been stated multiple times it's a different palmrest and if you consider it carefully, it must be: a seven row keyboard out of necessity takes more space than a six row and also there's a different firmware which will be very difficult to hack. Do you remember how long it took for the T430 firmware to be hacked? It took until 2016 April that is four years to get there.

I'm was more concerned about physically connecting the T420 keyboard and getting it correctly mapped in the BIOS, than dealing with the palmrest, to be honest. Palmrest are comparatively low tech, so 51nb or some people with good CAD skills surely could do something about them.

Yeah, four years is indeed an eternity in the computer realm. But maybe good lessons have been learned and, provided the T470's firmware isn't too different, its hack could be done in six months or one year (I might be very candid about that)

[Summilux]

(That's why the next purchase, January-ish will be the AORUS GTX 1070 Gaming Box, both the TB3 bridge and the video card from a single vendor unless the Mantiz Portable eGPU actually happens .)

Thanks for reminding me about eGPUs. I could go with that for a gaming rig (with the GPU case in a different room nearby), instead of an expensive fanless Calyos.

[Ibthink]

@summilux,

the problem is that you are massively overestimating the size of the Premium-market.

Yes, the L-Series covers the really cheap class, but that doesn´t mean the price-pressure on the T-Series is any lower. There is only one T-Series model that can really be considered truly premium and even at this level there are cost compromises.

So you really want another line above the T-Series - Lenovo has such lines, the P-Series on the Workstation end (which was introduced in 2015 after a long time of not having a dedicated workstation-series) and the X1-Series for mobility. At this price-level, price-pressure is much less pronounced, though still not gone. The X1-Series is the only series where I think introducing a non-standard 3:2 could make sense. But the X1 isn´t very "classical" in its design, its an Ultrabook-Series.

On the resolution issue: Yes, higher resolution have been available for a long time. But they never made up a huge part of the market. Here is some data on this: https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/lapt ... ion-ripoff In 2012, not even 20 % of the laptop-market had above HD-res screens. Thankfully, this is changing now.

Its easy to say "just educate customers" - grown-up people don´t like to be educated and most people will dismiss it as marketing. In the end, you can try educating people all you want, it probably won´t help much. People ignorant about tech who will just use it probably will stay ignorant. Whats really needed is education in schools, but this is not the manufacturers duty.

I feel you are dismissing the premium niche too quickly based on an incomplete view of IBM's issues :

1. We don't know the fine detail of the PC division's losses - specifically how Thinkpads fared compared to other products.
2. We don't know precisely what IBM's PC strategy was, and how well or badly it was implemented.
3. The consumer electronics context was different - there was not yet the opportunity to successfuly place laptops in a premium niche.

Actually we do know more - there is an interesting book which was recently published "How the ThinkPad Changed the World - and Is shaping the future" by Arimasa Naitoh, where he does talk a bit about this crisis.

ThinkPads were IBMs main PC product, the rest was pretty negligible in comparison. So of course, ThinkPads were responsible for the 1 billion dollar loss that IBM suffered from PCs in the 2001-2004 period.

IBM could have kept ThinkPad as a hobby product for brand recognition, but they didn´t. Which is understandable considering the losses. After all, the company has to explain such losses to its share-holders. If they wouldn´t have sold it, they would have probably just turned off the lights. IBM is not a company that keeps loss-producing businesses afloat because of vanity.

They tried but their mistake was not to perseverate.

They weren´t because of the 2009 economic crisis. The X300 line came out with the worst timing, as companies cut back on their PC purchases to save money during the global recession.

The 2009 crisis caused another shift downwards and led Lenovo to embrace the consumer market more, because it learned that it could not depend too much on companies.

So after the failure of the very expensive X300/X301 they tried again with the ThinkPad X1 in 2011. The ThinkPad X1 also was a failure, but an interesting one. Lenovo dramatically cut down the costs by adopting Magnesium instead of the Carbon that it used on the X301. Also, the X1 had a standard-voltage CPU (unlike the underpowered and slow X301). So in a certain way, Lenovo tried to apply the learnings it took from the X300 failure.

But the X1 was also used as an opportunity exploit the Apple-dominated prosumer market. Thats why it had a glossy screen as well as a Chiclet 6 row keyboard, the first time ever on an expensive ThinkPad. And while the X1 failed for multiple reasons (mainly not enough battery-life, glossy HD screen and high weight/thickness), the keyboard was highly acclaimed. In fact, it got so much praise that it motivated Lenovo to move all ThinkPads to this design. And thus, we got the new keyboard.

You can thank the prosumer premium market for that. Its a double-edged sword. It made 3:2 in PCs possible, but it also encouraged the move to more modern designs.

The original X1 Carbon a year later (this time Lenovo was preservative) finally succeeded: It dropped the glossy screen in favor for a HD+ matte screen and itwas much thinner and lighter thanks to the use of ULV CPUs and Carbon (which was much cheaper now). The X1 Carbon became the blueprint for all other modern ThinkPads due to its success.

- Commercially : it further encourages the sale of under-optimised machines and of wide screens.

This is where you are wrong: What it does encourage is the re-evaluation of the keyboard-design/layout. Because this is the defining feature of this machine and why people will buy it. So buying it sends a message that this keyboard is wanted.

It won't cost much to try swapping the keyboards, we might have a good surprise for once ?

I know for sure that this won´t work. The keyboard has to be one with reduced travel. Old ThinkPads had 2.5 mm, newer models have 2.1 to 1.8 mm (depending on the model). Its mechanically incompatible. And the connectors have changed dramatically compared to 2011.

[lophiomys]

We ARE part of the "prosumer premium market",
and we many are clearly communicating that we want a Classic Thinkpad. (cf. participants at the polls on Lenovo Blogs in the past)
Besides a workable and up to date screen / format this would also include
+ reliability, service and repairability, which is NOT offered by Lenovo currently and during the past years.
Look at the troubles with super premium P-Series.

Another observation in my work environment, which I need to keep repeating here on the forum:
Many of the prosumers, I am meeting, do not have Thinkpads any more. (Most of them had Thinkpads before.) One or two Yogas is, what is left.

E.g., the X300 / X301 failed not because there was no market for it, but because the product was flawed compared to its predecessors:
Crappy TN LCD screen (no high DPI IPS) and slow CPU. (IIRC it didn't even have a Docking Station!)
What idiot would buy that for a premium price!?

All that failures would not have happened, if Lenovo would have offered a
reliable Classic Thinkpad with workhorse qualities and good specs.

[dr_st]

But the X1 was also used as an opportunity exploit the Apple-dominated prosumer market. Thats why it had a glossy screen as well as a Chiclet 6 row keyboard, the first time ever on an expensive ThinkPad. And while the X1 failed for multiple reasons (mainly not enough battery-life, glossy HD screen and high weight/thickness), the keyboard was highly acclaimed. In fact, it got so much praise that it motivated Lenovo to move all ThinkPads to this design. And thus, we got the new keyboard.

You can thank the prosumer premium market for that. Its a double-edged sword. It made 3:2 in PCs possible, but it also encouraged the move to more modern designs.

Interesting point. So, in essence we "owe" the "keyboard winter" to Lenovo's inability to put feedback into context. The keyboard was highly acclaimed by people who were comparing the X1 to the Air and its other clones. It was acclaimed by people who are not traditional Thinkpad users and who were comparing it to the other crap in the market. No one ever praised the keyboard (at least the layout - the cardinal sin) compared to the traditional Thinkpad keyboard. The wrong lesson was learned.

[Puppy]

No one ever praised the keyboard (at least the layout - the cardinal sin) compared to the traditional Thinkpad keyboard. The wrong lesson was learned.

I guess one of other reasons was to make bigger touchpad to be close to MacBook and non-trackpoint customers. This obsession culminated by the terrible clickpad in 40 series. I can also feel Lenovo's cost cutting tendecies to have similar ThinkPad/Edge/IdeaPad keyboard design regardless of how crappy and improper is for ThinkPad series.

The reason of X1 Carbon failure was (apart from other issues) display quality control again. I have seen many ones with terrible uneven backlight and (still recurring after replace) bright spots, moreover there was annoying screen door effect that Lenovo had never fixed. Something that is not native for the Apple competition.

[Ibthink]

Interesting point. So, in essence we "owe" the "keyboard winter" to Lenovo's inability to put feedback into context. The keyboard was highly acclaimed by people who were comparing the X1 to the Air and its other clones. It was acclaimed by people who are not traditional Thinkpad users and who were comparing it to the other crap in the market. No one ever praised the keyboard (at least the layout - the cardinal sin) compared to the traditional Thinkpad keyboard. The wrong lesson was learned.

The keyboard of the original X1 is really, really good in terms of typing feel, which is why it got these glowing reviews. I own one as a collectible, its pretty great in that regard.

You are right no one praised the layout, but the issue is that also no one (well, except ThinkPad fans) complained about it. Business costumers for sure didn´t, neither did the media. So yes, the wrong message was learned - people who don´t care about the layout also would not complain about the 7 row layout, unless they have the "Apple Simplicity Disease".

I guess one of other reasons was to make bigger touchpad to be close to MacBook and non-trackpoint customers

The TouchPad of the X1 isn´t very big, nor are the touchpads of the T430-gen ThinkPads very big. Maybe this played a role for the 12" X-Series, because this is where the trackpad grew the most.

I can also feel Lenovo's cost cutting tendecies to have similar ThinkPad/Edge/IdeaPad keyboard design regardless of how crappy and improper is for ThinkPad series.

The keyboard is similar looking with the IdeaPads, but its not the same, its very different. E-Series also often uses different keyboards, notably they don´t have the backlit option. If this was meant as a cost-cutting move to bring all the Notebooks line together with one shared keyboard, it did not work.

The reason of X1 Carbon failure was

It wasn´t a failure for Lenovo.

[TPFanatic]

The acceptability of 16:10 is because the panels are same vertical res in pixels and nearly the same physical height as 4:3.

17" 16:10 is the same height as 15" 4:3.
15.4" 16:10 is just shorter than 14.1" 4:3.

Both were offered with the very usable 1920x1200 that offers no compromise from 1600x1200, except put into practice the W700 makes A31p look like an X-series. 15.4" laptops too are incredibly wide and even 14.1" wide laptops are built wider than 15" models, despite the screens being the same physical width. Bad design, perhaps, but necessary at the time of their introduction due to the flattening out and squaring off of lids and bases to accommodate the internal rollcage, probably.

[Summilux]

Ibthink :

I'm only asking for successors to the T60 and X60 : square screens and classic keyboard. It would make a lot of sense to put these models in the T and X lines, but apparently that's asking too much.
So Lenovo could create a Classic line for such computers. It would be a premium line along the P series and X1 series.. To balance the supposed costs of the square-ish 3:2 screens (because I don't see them offering 4:3), the could limit the CPU to an i3. I'm sure many people would be okay with that. Not happy, but okay, if that's what it takes to get a classic TP again.

On education : I believe it's perfectly possible to somewhat educate people. We're at an age where people are still dumb and companies still do a lot of nasty scheisse, but also where companies start being more responsible. Teslas and Nissan Leafs aren't commercial failures, and that's in part because responsibility is a concept that resonates with consumers.
That will be a refreshing change from pure marketing BS. But even then, people will be happy to swallow marketing BS. They swallowed crippled displays and crippled keyboards when manufacturers told them it was such a cool thing to have, so why wouldn't swallow more productive screens ? They would. Consumers aren't the real problem, manufacturers lack of will is.

Thank you for the book reference, I have ordered it. I cannot validate the claim that Thinkpads were a perpetual dreg without having read the book and its arguments first.

About the X1 : that's an interesting analysis, thank you for developing it. I don't know why Lenovo was stupid enough to offer only a glossy option for the screen, when, again, nobody complained about matte screens FFS ! They wanted to try a cool new feature ? Great ! More power to them. But it should have been done in parallel with the regular, time-tested, features.
That's the problem with Lenovo : they replace things that work with things that don't work, without even letting the possibility to order the good old working things.
Selective hearing is yet another issue : as underlined by dr_st, they mostly hear the praise, and don't put it into perspective. Critics are less important.
Non-Thinkpadders loved the crippled keyboard ? Great ! Keep feeding them this "innovation". Thinkpadders hated it ? Well what was the logical thing to do : 1) offer them the option of getting a classic keyboard ; 2) ignore them. History knows what Lenovo has chosen. For shame.

About the necessity to buy the T470-25 : Why would Lenovo need to hear an indirect message when we already and directly made them aware of our wishes ? Through the polls we clearly told Lenovo that we don't want 16:9, that we want status lights, and that we want the classic keyboard too. (And a bunch of other things, but these are the most prominent). Why did Lenovo only implement one little feature out of everything we asked, and why should we then validate their selective hearing ?

In relation to this, I want to quote this very savoury interview from a Lenovo official :

I had the opportunity while at CES to sit down for an exclusive interview with Emilio Ghilardi, the new COO of Lenovo North America, to learn from him why Lenovo has been so successful in such a difficult environment, and how it plans to stay that way.

Lenovo’s formula for success

Ghilardi can quickly point to the reasons he sees for Lenovo’s continued success selling to large businesses.

[...]

Finally, Ghilardi believes that innovating to address customers’ unmet needs is a key factor in Lenovo’s continued success. This starts with Lenovo’s customer-focused product design process. Focusing on customer needs may seem like common sense, but the hard work of getting customer input, sifting through it, and then actually building products that address their needs isn’t something every tech firm is good at.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/2 ... et-for-pcs

Great job Lenovo ! You're soooo good at building products that address our needs !

[chx1975]

Here's an idea -- wish they did it this time as well -- instead of guessing what price point we would accept run a crowdsourcing campaign. Talos ran one for $7000 workstations with a 3.7M goal and that was a noname company. High numbers are definitely not unheard of.

Lenovo might be in for a surprise if they say "look, we can give you all you want, a 16:10 screen, status LEDs, classic keyboard, TB3, quad (six...) core CPU, dual PCIe SSDs but it'll be $6000 and we need to sell 10 000 to manufacture it". Who knows, they might just find 10k insane people

[dr_st]

Through the polls we clearly told Lenovo that we don't want 16:9, that we want status lights, and that we want the classic keyboard too. (And a bunch of other things, but these are the most prominent). Why did Lenovo only implement one little feature out of everything we asked, and why should we then validate their selective hearing ?

Because it's the most important of all the features that were on the table, by far.

Imagine yourself in the position of the product manager at Lenovo for this retro project. Imagine your manager telling you something along the lines of - We (as a company) have a lot on the table, times are uncertain for the PC market in general, we have limited resources, this is a high-risk project, the usual yada-yada. Bottom line: you only get resources to invest and implement one of the features that was asked for - you pick.

What would you choose?

[Puppy]

we have limited resources, this is a high-risk project

Compared to X1C adaptive keyboard? Not at all.

What would you choose?

If they built a new keyboard why the status LEDs (that were part of the keyboard on original T92 render) are missing? The cost of three LEDs is virtually zero.

[Summilux]

Lenovo might be in for a surprise if they say "look, we can give you all you want, a 16:10 screen, status LEDs, classic keyboard, TB3, quad (six...) core CPU, dual PCIe SSDs but it'll be $6000 and we need to sell 10 000 to manufacture it". Who knows, they might just find 10k insane people

I'm wishing for 51nb to do just this. They know how to make mobos and the classic keyboard part will be handled by Lenovo (lol), so the "only" remaining things that'd have to be taken care of would be the display, shell, battery, etc. But even for that they could salvage or get original parts without too many troubles.

The most difficult issue would be the procurement of the display - and the Kickstarter or Indigogo would serve to get advance orders and advance funds. The crowdfunding page would stipulate that after preliminary discussions with display makers, the laptop would cost this if there are 10.000 orders, and that if there are 20.000 orders. Which, in turn, would give another incentive for people to get into this group buy - the more buyers, the cheaper it becomes.

Bottom line: you only get resources to invest and implement one of the features that was asked for - you pick.

What would you choose?

As said repeatedly by Puppy, Lenovo has zero excuse for not including at least status lights in addition to the keyboard. Zero.

They could have ticked two poor boxes out of the several things that were realistically asked for, and that'd remain pathetic in the grand scheme of things, but still, at least they'd have implemented two things instead of one.

But no, they couldn't even do that. Or actually they could, but they didn't want to do that. Minimal thinking stemming from deep incompetence. Thank you for everything Lenovo. Not.

[theterminator93]

If they built a new keyboard why the status LEDs (that were part of the keyboard on original T92 render) are missing? The cost of three LEDs is virtually zero.

This thing will likely use the system board of the T470, so they would have to re-engineer the T470 system board to put LED circuits on it which apparently would cost them too much money.

[Ibthink]

@summilux,

At some point the lineup becomes too big and bloated. I don´t think the premium market is big enough to warrant all those different lines. So I don´t think a regular extra line just for Thinkpad fans would ever be created.

Maybe I am being naively optimistic, but the trend towards 3:2 could mean that the screen industry will start to offer it in the future as a standard format. In this case, the standard models might be transitioned to 3:2, starting in the premium segment. So the square-ish screens could come in the future, regardless of the ThinkPad 25.

About the necessity to buy the T470-25 : Why would Lenovo need to hear an indirect message when we already and directly made them aware of our wishes ?

There is no more direct message than sales for a company.

Complains don´t matter, only if it influences sales. How this works can be seen clearly demonstrated by the example of the buttonless ClickPad that was introduced with the Tx40 line: It impacted their bottom line because companies were unhappy with it and supposedly some shifted away from ThinkPads. So they changed it back after one generation.

If you deal with companies and try to influence them, you have to understand them first. Most companies, especially huge enterprises with thousands of employees, care about money first and the rest second. Thats why hating them or loving them is both futile: They don´t respond to emotions. But this also means that they are not generally stubborn, if they made a change that had a negative impact, they will change it back. Thus, there is also a high likely-hood that they will react to something that has a positive impact on their revenue and profit.

Of course, there are no guarantees. But this is the first time in years that ThinkPad-fans have a chance to really send them the message what they want, at least keyboard-wise.

[RealBlackStuff]

As I mentioned before, Lenovo produces over 30 different Series of laptops, some even more shoddy than the other!
If they would just limit themselves to, say, 10 Series, they could save millions already!

And also limit the huge number of different keyboards (not considering different language layouts):
Thinkpad T/X/X1/P, with trackpoint, without numpad
- with 6 rows (chicklet), with backlight and one size only
- with 7 rows (classic), [with backlight ??] and one size only
Thinkpad T/P, with trackpoint, with numpad
- with 6 rows (chicklet), with backlight and one size only
- with 7 rows (classic), [with backlight ??] and one size only
All Thinkpads T/X/X1/P should also have the same KB connectors.

All other models, with 6 rows (chicklet), with backlight, without trackpoint:
- without numpad and one size only
- with numpad and one size only
All other models should also have the same KB connectors.

[Thinkpad4by3]

If they built a new keyboard why the status LEDs (that were part of the keyboard on original T92 render) are missing? The cost of three LEDs is virtually zero.

This thing will likely use the system board of the T470, so they would have to re-engineer the T470 system board to put LED circuits on it which apparently would cost them too much money.

If 51NB can economically make custom motherboards, why can't Lenovo?

[theterminator93]

This thing will likely use the system board of the T470, so they would have to re-engineer the T470 system board to put LED circuits on it which apparently would cost them too much money.

If 51NB can economically make custom motherboards, why can't Lenovo?

Which, in my humblest of opinions, just goes to show how much Lenovo corporate didn't want to undertake this pet project of David's at all.

[Summilux]

At some point the lineup becomes too big and bloated. I don´t think the premium market is big enough to warrant all those different lines. So I don´t think a regular extra line just for Thinkpad fans would ever be created.

Adding a supplementary line seemed to better fit Lenovo's questionable strategy of flooding each sub-niche of the market, and as RBS says their lineup is already maximally bloated - so one more Thinkpad series really wouldn't change much. However do note that my personal stance favours the solution of just offering classic options/versions within the existing T and X lines.

Maybe I am being naively optimistic, but the trend towards 3:2 could mean that the screen industry will start to offer it in the future as a standard format. In this case, the standard models might be transitioned to 3:2, starting in the premium segment. So the square-ish screens could come in the future, regardless of the ThinkPad 25.

I'd like to see such a development. But then again, it wouldn't guarantee that future 3:2 Thinkpads also get a classic keyboard and status lights

There is no more direct message than sales for a company.
Complains don´t matter, only if it influences sales.

Yes and no. This is certainly what speaks the most, but the thing is : if a manager has to wait until his sales are tanking before getting the message, he's an incompetent moron.

I know about big companies' inertia. But this is changing thanks to new management models that have been developed and experimented.
Various companies around the world and in different industries now actively run surveys and monitor customer satisfaction because they want an input about what the customers think/want. And then adjust their offering according to real-time market trends.
Why ? Because dynamic adjustment keeps customers more satisfied, and increased satisfaction leads to repeat sales.

So you have Lenovo who on the one hand prides itself about listening to its customers (cf. the Lenovo sub-continental COO I quoted a few messages above) and also running a series of surveys about a customer-oriented project ; and on the other hand, you have Lenovo dismissing the opinions it asked for, and offering uninspired me-too crap by the boatload.
Why such a big discrepancy within the same company ? Incompetence is the only answer I can come up with.

Also I want to say that I understand your stance, but think you're being too lenient with Lenovo's management.

[Puppy]

This thing will likely use the system board of the T470, so they would have to re-engineer the T470 system board to put LED circuits on it which apparently would cost them too much money.

Yes, but this is probably the most ridiculous reason. Lenovo is worse than a garage/crowdfunding project if they are not able to design such motherboard for 25th anniversary ThinkPad model Again, no one ever asked to remove the status LEDs anyway.

[micrex22]

If 51NB can economically make custom motherboards, why can't Lenovo?

Well Lenovo would also have to provide support and warranty, among other things. So there are a few more things to consider that 51NB has the luxury of ignoring.

[Puppy]

Well Lenovo would also have to provide support and warranty, among other things. So there are a few more things to consider that 51NB has the luxury of ignoring.

Lenovo designs over 30 different motherboards every year and produce them in high volumes, there are no custom ones. It is completely different situation than 51NB. The fact they're lazy to design the 31st one for the annivesary model is frustrating.

[lophiomys]

Strictly Lenovo would not have to provide Support and Warranty, because
if it would be a reasonably Classic Thinkpad, I'd buy three spares right away.

In addition to consider, what about the current level of quality of support and warranty by Lenovo in real life?
Personally I have given up on service and warranty by Lenovo.

Given the size of Lenovo warranty and support would be just one of their services, for which they have should have allocated resources anyway!

Another thought:
Quality circuit boards (and CPUs too) are most of the time feature complete and for "more cheap" products some features are simply turned off.

...
There is absolutely no excuse for Lenovo not providing it.

[Puppy]

Most companies, especially huge enterprises with thousands of employees, care about money first and the rest second. Thats why hating them or loving them is both futile: They don´t respond to emotions. But this also means that they are not generally stubborn, if they made a change that had a negative impact, they will change it back. Thus, there is also a high likely-hood that they will react to something that has a positive impact on their revenue and profit.

Wondering whether there are numbes about Lenovo/Dell/HP/Apple sales in enterprises. Maybe it is region specific but I haven't seen any ThinkPad in big companies over here since 30 series era. Everything is HP/Dell (Windows) or MacBook.